TOPIC: 2021 Wizard Relic & Legendary Feedback

Matthew Hayward wrote:
A. One 3 point (+3 with skill test)
B. One 8 point (+3 with skill test)
C. One 18 point requiring a slide - assume you hit 90% of the time.
D. One 20 point
Assume for spells A and B, you don't double them with MeC, because you double the other spell you cast as a standard action instead.

Assume for spell C and D, you double them with MeC, but at the cost of not doubling the other spell you cast that turn. We take that other spell to be an 8 point spell.

For B (level 1), you can plug in 14 now, right? The new rare scroll would likely get cast there. Possibly worth MEC'ing in your calculation?

Matthew Hayward wrote: 20 + 12 (MeC difference between this and the other spell you could have doubled) + Spell damage bonus (Spell D) = 67

I didn't understand the concept of 'difference between this and other spell you could have doubled' on spell C & D. Just wondering if you can explain that one.

I realize that Wizards don't use all of their spells, but 10 rounds of combat would mean using all the level 1 spells, right? You could upgrade the rest of the level 1 spells to 12 damage, since there are scrolls to cover it. There's a net gain there of 18 if you upgrade Burning Hands and 3x Magic Missiles to 12dmg scrolls (when I say 'rest of' I'm not considering upgrading Acid Ray to the 14 dmg scroll in the net 18 number).

Matthew Hayward wrote:
Let's assume a BiS build with a damage bonus of +45, and an average damage wheel of 12.8.

Doing an every faster monk analysis:

BiS damage bonus: +35
Damage wheel: 7.5

It looks like the spell damage modifier you're using is 35? The gap between spell damage stacking and STR/Melee dmg stacking is troubling, and the real culprit, imho. Over-arsenal-izing this legendary with free actions (I mean the 8 spells in the previous version, I think 4 is fine) does not seem complimentary to printing a variety of new spell dmg boosting tokens. Like Dan, I just worry how that would have scaled over time. Only TPTB really know how they'll shrink the gap. Hopefully your formulas help them draw some conclusions and chart a path for how they'll accomplish it.

So, speaking as someone who literally just ran Nightmare for the first time at the first VTD event, I really like this item as a wizard. Moreso than the familiar version that has been mentioned elsewhere.

I understand that a lot of wizards who are going to be going for this have a Mad Evoker's Charm, but it's been out of print and I'd rather work to build this than find one.

I'm never gonna be the kind of person who will calculate DPR and what's the best build. I'm a Timmy at heart, to use M:TG classifications. I like big flashy things. I love this item. I get to put scrolls in my spellbook, which is a huge wizard thing, traditionally. I get to cast from hitpoints and I get to cast a spell as a free action? That's awesome.

And I'm excited for familiars as their own thing and to see what they do then. If I really want to slide a puck as a wizard, polymorph is there for me.

As someone who hasn't even considered transmuting something this crazy before, this has gotten me excited and looking at cataloging all my tokens to send in for trade goods in prep.

I think a lot of people here know better about balance, but this is my little diatribe on it being exciting for me, as a player who's been playing for a couple of years and hasn't dived too crazily deep on the token aspect yet.

Juion wrote: So, speaking as someone who literally just ran Nightmare for the first time at the first VTD event, I really like this item as a wizard. Moreso than the familiar version that has been mentioned elsewhere.

I understand that a lot of wizards who are going to be going for this have a Mad Evoker's Charm, but it's been out of print and I'd rather work to build this than find one.

I'm never gonna be the kind of person who will calculate DPR and what's the best build. I'm a Timmy at heart, to use M:TG classifications. I like big flashy things. I love this item. I get to put scrolls in my spellbook, which is a huge wizard thing, traditionally. I get to cast from hitpoints and I get to cast a spell as a free action? That's awesome.

And I'm excited for familiars as their own thing and to see what they do then. If I really want to slide a puck as a wizard, polymorph is there for me.

As someone who hasn't even considered transmuting something this crazy before, this has gotten me excited and looking at cataloging all my tokens to send in for trade goods in prep.

I think a lot of people here know better about balance, but this is my little diatribe on it being exciting for me, as a player who's been playing for a couple of years and hasn't dived too crazily deep on the token aspect yet.

I appreciate that perspective and was coming to the conclusion that individuals in the same situation as far as length of playing and tokens are the ideal audience for the relic and legendary.

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Dave wrote: Disappointed. I get that you want to wait with the familiars and won't argue that point, although I really would have like it now.

But here's the thing. The legendary does next to nothing for me, certainly nothing that will get me to fork over 40K gp and hundreds of trade goods. All I get from it is a freed charm slot for MEC. I understand those who lobbied for MoMM ability in this legendary, but to me it's useless. Between the Cabal set, the new free action spells and RoSS, I would never have a free action available to use the ability. Sorry to vent, but it feels sad to play elf wizard/wizard 30-40 times a year and have no interest in the upcoming legendary. Yes, I'll get the relic, but its way too costly for me to upgrade and frankly, uninteresting.

I'm not quite as sad as you, I was an early MMM proponent who vastly preferred the prior design, as I'm really a "give me free action stuff to think about proponent" and the prior design did that in spades.

C'est la vie.

This. I know I brought up MoMM last round, but I was more trying to compare power level to the relic. Adding mystic mouth as part of the legendary is like saying 'chocolate and garlic make everything taste great, so here is your chocolate covered garlic'.
I like maximizing my action usage by always having a wand as a free action. The relic starts pushing spells as free actions, but not enough for ALL your free actions, then this version of legendary doubles back to bring wands back in...but now you only get to use them half the time because of your free action spells. The legendary needs to push one way or the other, a little of both isn't exciting for anyone.

As for this relic; I would get it and create a completely different wizard build from my mystic mouth build.

This legendary; I would not get. The prev version with 8 free action spells would be very tempting, and I would need to look at my budget.

Fiddy wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote: I prefer the prior revision.

The delta to me between these two revisions is:

Lose: 1 extra spell box at each level (cast as a free action)
Lose: Slotless +3 AC and +1 to saves from Potion Polymorph Brownie
Lose: Tactical ability to slide a puck to bump around other tokens
Lose: Slotless ability to negate a melee hit for Rare polymorph potion 1/game
Gain: ~+10 damage per round excepting the 4 rounds where I'm casting spells from Mage Medallion and maybe one from Ring of Spell Storing, at the cost of 3-4 Rare wands per adventure
Gain: Charm slot

I'm happy to hear Familiars will return in a more comprehensive manner.

In the mean time, I'd be curious if there is any way to get back the additional spell slots as a free action. Or, if giving up more additional spells is too much, even just more FA spells, such as: "You may cast a spell from your card as a free action, 4/game."

Also, in case I'm driving designers insane by flipflopping in MMM (I'd previously said I really hoped MMM was included). I was just so blown away by the prior design of +8 spells as a FA, which I'd happily give up MMM for .

I think you missed:

Gain: 5 extra 1st level spells.

The new version of the UR doesn't say that you mark off existing spell boxes, it says they are added.

If that's so, then I definitely missed it - and need to think a bit more!

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Arnold wrote: 20 + 12 (MeC difference between this and the other spell you could have doubled) + Spell damage bonus (Spell D) = 67

I didn't understand the concept of 'difference between this and other spell you could have doubled' on spell C & D. Just wondering if you can explain that one.

Sure! You can only use MeC once a round. I assume you're casting two spells on each round (otherwise the idea that the Relic Medallion is adding lots of extra damage goes out the window).

So, when you are casting your free action Ray of Shock or Lightning Storm you will double them with MeC most likely. Also on that round you'll cast another spell, say Magic Missile.

If you weren't casting Ray of Shock / Lightning Storm, you'd double Magic Missile with MeC for +8 damage (+11 with skill test). But now, you'll double Ray of Shock for +18 with spell slide, or Lightning Storm for +20.

Your net benefit from the MeC portion alone then is 18 - 8 (or -11 with skill test), and 20 - 8 (or -11 with skill test). over not having this token.

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Fiddy wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote: I prefer the prior revision.

The delta to me between these two revisions is:

Lose: 1 extra spell box at each level (cast as a free action)
Lose: Slotless +3 AC and +1 to saves from Potion Polymorph Brownie
Lose: Tactical ability to slide a puck to bump around other tokens
Lose: Slotless ability to negate a melee hit for Rare polymorph potion 1/game
Gain: ~+10 damage per round excepting the 4 rounds where I'm casting spells from Mage Medallion and maybe one from Ring of Spell Storing, at the cost of 3-4 Rare wands per adventure
Gain: Charm slot

I'm happy to hear Familiars will return in a more comprehensive manner.

In the mean time, I'd be curious if there is any way to get back the additional spell slots as a free action. Or, if giving up more additional spells is too much, even just more FA spells, such as: "You may cast a spell from your card as a free action, 4/game."

Also, in case I'm driving designers insane by flipflopping in MMM (I'd previously said I really hoped MMM was included). I was just so blown away by the prior design of +8 spells as a FA, which I'd happily give up MMM for .

I think you missed:

Gain: 5 extra 1st level spells.

The new version of the UR doesn't say that you mark off existing spell boxes, it says they are added.

If that's so, then I definitely missed it - and need to think a bit more!

We need verification on that.

Sadly tho it's a damage loss to use any of the uncommon scrolls or no damage gain based on currently available uncommon scrolls.In the neck slot the UR token is beaten out, damage wise, by the Medallion of Focus....

As a slotless token it's a GREAT boon to Wizards, as a necklace it's a guaranteed damage loss to equip. That doesn't seem like a great design

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Arnold wrote: 20 + 12 (MeC difference between this and the other spell you could have doubled) + Spell damage bonus (Spell D) = 67

I didn't understand the concept of 'difference between this and other spell you could have doubled' on spell C & D. Just wondering if you can explain that one.

Sure! You can only use MeC once a round. I assume you're casting two spells on each round (otherwise the idea that the Relic Medallion is adding lots of extra damage goes out the window).

So, when you are casting your free action Ray of Shock or Lightning Storm you will double them with MeC most likely. Also on that round you'll cast another spell, say Magic Missile.

If you weren't casting Ray of Shock / Lightning Storm, you'd double Magic Missile with MeC for +8 damage (+11 with skill test). But now, you'll double Ray of Shock for +18 with spell slide, or Lightning Storm for +20.

Your net benefit from the MeC portion alone then is 18 - 8 (or -11 with skill test), and 20 - 8 (or -11 with skill test). over not having this token.

I never realized MeC was once per round. 🤯

I hear stories about suicidal Wizards paying all of their life and I naturally assumed you could MeC all of your spells. Not sure why it's considered OP after now understanding this.

Here are some proposals for how to tune up the current legendary, why not give a plus 1 if any of these speak to you:

Proposal 1:

Drop MeC effect, keep MMM effect

Add both of:
Wand Master - You don't turn in wands
Wand Blaster - You may apply your spell bonus to wands, but you have to turn them in

Proposal 2:

Drop MeC and MMM effects.

Add:
+1 spell per level as a free action
Whimsical Fun* (see below)

Proposal 3:

Drop MMM effect.

Add:
You may cast a spell, read a scroll, or use a wand as a free action (X/game)
(Fixes up your hands slot in terms of setting down your weapon and picking it back up like MMM, tune the X/game to the number that feels right. I'm thinking 4-6.)

Proposal 4:

Drop MMM effect.

Add:
You may cast Level 0 (or Level 1? or Both?) Spells as a free action.

Whimsical Fun Ideas

Similar to Animal Friend, Rangers can read Druid Scrolls, +2 psychic use - some small bonus that is fun.

Here are some ideas:

Mistaken Identity - Target a willing party member with a spell that otherwise can only target the caster (1-2/game)

Psychic Blast - All enemies take 3x your Psychic Level Psychic damage (1/game)

Astral Journey - During combat become Incorporeal, cancel as an instantaneous action (1/game) (While incorporeal you can't be damaged except with Ghost Touched attacks or Force damage. Your non-force damage spells/attacks do no damage while you are incorporeal).

kurtreznor wrote: Adding mystic mouth as part of the legendary is like saying 'chocolate and garlic make everything taste great, so here is your chocolate covered garlic'.

Lol!

The relic starts pushing spells as free actions, but not enough for ALL your free actions, then this version of legendary doubles back to bring wands back in...but now you only get to use them half the time because of your free action spells. The legendary needs to push one way or the other, a little of both isn't exciting for anyone.

This is really insightful.

Fiddy wrote:

Justice wrote:

macxdmg wrote: Can a person wear a MEC and the legendary and cut twice a round?

Hahaha I can imagine Dave now!

So that’s why clerics are getting all the FA heals

Yes, it is all just to keep Dave alive

See, I would be just fine if the legendary doubled the MEC damage done to the wizard. In all seriousness, MEC forces wizards to adjust their build. Without MEC, you can go into a nightmare run with 30-40 hp and if you have a paladin guarding you and a decent cleric and/or druid you have a good chance of survival. If you use MEC, you really need to be in the 50-60 hp range at minimum. Unless, like me you are trying to die. Dying only works if someone in your party is willing to sacrifice actions to shove potions or mushrooms down your throat. I'm afraid one of these days I'll announce that I cut myself and died and the party will just shrug their shoulders and go "ok", and then move on.

macxdmg wrote:
Can a person wear a MEC and the legendary and cut twice a round?

I assume not with the legendary - but I had the same question.