TOPIC: 2021 Wizard Relic & Legendary Feedback

Arcanist Kolixela wrote: I would prefer we not add anything consumable related to the Wizard Legendary token unless that addition makes the item non consumable and I do not see that happening for dusts.

I agree legendary powers should not require turning in consumables. The wizard should be able to keep the wands like the druid keeps the polymorph potions.

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

edwin wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote: Maybe this is not the reason why it is was changed, but are there any Wizard players here who prefer this version of the Legendary to the prior version?

Not me.

Not me. Prior version had me working towards comparison with current elf wizard build. Current version has me skipping UR, Relic and Legendary all together and wishing the best for wizards who use them.

Hopefully there's some updates to the tokens.

I think the Spellbook is too weak as an UR. The relic is decent. Do not like the Legendary

Absolutely no need for the relic to survive nightmare runs. I never run out of spells. Better off tooling a wizard to attack at range with Thor's hammer to be more viable for Epic and Grind. Neither UR, Relic or Legendary help in that regards. Better survival rate in Epic and Grind by equipping other tokens than the UR, Relic or Legendary.

Arcanist Kolixela wrote: Hopefully there's some updates to the tokens.

I think the Spellbook is too weak as an UR. The relic is decent. Do not like the Legendary

A few hours to sleep on it and this pretty much sums up my feeling on the wizard path.
When then Spellbook was unslotted, it was worth getting, but as a neck item there are better URs for a wizard.
The addition of the free action spells on the relic make it a decent pickup and worth consideration. Does it seem powerful? Yes, but not overly so when you consider what you're giving up.
The legendary adds nothing.
There is absolutely no gain to wizard damage upgrading to the legendary until you go more than 8-9 rounds of combat. Only after that do you have the free actions available to use the MoMM effect. And even then I have to start burning consumable wands. While I know there are others that feel differently, I'm just not interested in going down that path. I'm reading that other wizards aren't either. So in effect, the legendary only appeals to a subset of wizards. Can the rest of us get our legendary next year?

For me it is too specific for a style or two of play instead of more general across most styles of play. No spell damage bonus, no bonus to hit with sliding spells, no ability to adjust damage type to make your spells always effective, no ability to swap spells already on the card.

If one uses MEC you free up one charm slot, get spells that are not needed to survive, get added flexibility at the cost of damage, in exhange for what you give up in the neck slot.

If one uses MoMM you are changing what goes in the neck slot, you get spells that are not needed to survive, get added flexibility at the cost of damage.

I will be happy for those that choose to make it and use it.

Matthew Hayward wrote: I prefer the prior revision.

The delta to me between these two revisions is:

Lose: 1 extra spell box at each level (cast as a free action)
Lose: Slotless +3 AC and +1 to saves from Potion Polymorph Brownie
Lose: Tactical ability to slide a puck to bump around other tokens
Lose: Slotless ability to negate a melee hit for Rare polymorph potion 1/game
Gain: ~+10 damage per round excepting the 4 rounds where I'm casting spells from Mage Medallion and maybe one from Ring of Spell Storing, at the cost of 3-4 Rare wands per adventure
Gain: Charm slot

I'm happy to hear Familiars will return in a more comprehensive manner.

In the mean time, I'd be curious if there is any way to get back the additional spell slots as a free action. Or, if giving up more additional spells is too much, even just more FA spells, such as: "You may cast a spell from your card as a free action, 4/game."

Also, in case I'm driving designers insane by flipflopping in MMM (I'd previously said I really hoped MMM was included). I was just so blown away by the prior design of +8 spells as a FA, which I'd happily give up MMM for .

I think you missed:

Gain: 5 extra 1st level spells.

The new version of the UR doesn't say that you mark off existing spell boxes, it says they are added.

Jeff, thanks for removing the Polymorph Familiar tokens! I think the way you plan on addressing it in 2021 is a far better way to go.

The Wizard Legendary is still extremely powerful, I think overly powerful. And every single ability is aimed at increasing the amount of damage the Wizard does, who is already one of the top damage dealing classes.

1) Ability to use any 5 scrolls as spells, lets the Wizard situationally choose the best five scrolls for any particular Dungeon, including elemental vulnerabilities, without consuming them.
2) Bonus Spell box at each Spell Level, which can be cast as instants. This is huge, it's not only extra spells, but gives the Wizard the ability to cast two spells per round, nearly doubling damage capability on those turns.
3) Medallion of Mystic Mouth built-in gives them free action Wand usage when not using free action spells, especially valuable since it is also neck slot.
4) Mad Enchanter's Charm: In my mind by far the most powerful and broken UR ever printed, significant extra damage every time it's used.

Compare this with the very underpowered Druid Legendary, which almost certainly gets less of an increase from the Relic than any other Class Legendary (the below is borrowed from Phillip Goodman). The summary is that the only real bonus currently from Relic to Legendary for the Druid is an average damage wheel increase of 1.5 points, which is insignificant.

1) 1.5 average damage increase on damage wheel
2) Can cast spells while polymorphed (useless since you can already unpoly -> cast -> poly every round from the Relic)
3) Polymorph potions, if used, don't have to be turned in. This would be a valuable ability if there were any worth using over the Elemental forms, but there aren't.
4) Even the ability to Polymorph into Elemental Forms from the Relic are underwhelming, it still puts the Druid fairly low on the damage dealing spectrum.

I'm putting this here because there isn't a separate thread for it. I would request the Druid Legendary abilities be modified as follows, to make it at least in the ballpark of power level of the other two Spellcaster Legendary tokens. This would not require any changes to the actual token or any sort of token exchange, they can very easily and quickly be made in the Tokendb.com entry.

1) Also give the Druid an extra spell box per level that can be cast as instant. The Druid class is going to fall far behind the Wizard class without also having that bonus.
2) For just the Legendary, remove the restriction of only one polymorph form per room. That restriction was added on at the last minute, and I think it was a mistake. The main argument for the restriction was that the Druid could attack as one Elemental form and defend as another. That comes into play in a small percentage of rooms, and even with those it isn't a huge advantage. A Legendary polymorpher should be able to do more than one form per room, just for the fun of it.
3) Modify the Elemental bonuses so that they're not just simply damage resistance. In particular, the Air Elemental form should have Flight.

Now is the ideal time to revise the Druid Legendary token, because the URs for it are still available as PYPs. I think the three spellcasting classes should have been done in the same year to start with so that they could be made consistent, so revising the Druid Legendary now is a way to do that.

Mike Steele wrote: Jeff, thanks for removing the Polymorph Familiar tokens! I think the way you plan on addressing it in 2021 is a far better way to go.

The Wizard Legendary is still extremely powerful, I think overly powerful. And every single ability is aimed at increasing the amount of damage the Wizard does, who is already one of the top damage dealing classes.

1) Ability to use any 5 scrolls as spells, lets the Wizard situationally choose the best five scrolls for any particular Dungeon, including elemental vulnerabilities, without consuming them.
2) Bonus Spell box at each Spell Level, which can be cast as instants. This is huge, it's not only extra spells, but gives the Wizard the ability to cast two spells per round, nearly doubling damage capability on those turns.
3) Medallion of Mystic Mouth built-in gives them free action Wand usage when not using free action spells, especially valuable since it is also neck slot.
4) Mad Enchanter's Charm: In my mind by far the most powerful and broken UR ever printed, significant extra damage every time it's used.

Compare this with the very underpowered Druid Legendary, which almost certainly gets less of an increase from the Relic than any other Class Legendary (the below is borrowed from Phillip Goodman). The summary is that the only real bonus currently from Relic to Legendary for the Druid is an average damage wheel increase of 1.5 points, which is insignificant.

1) 1.5 average damage increase on damage wheel
2) Can cast spells while polymorphed (useless since you can already unpoly -> cast -> poly every round from the Relic)
3) Polymorph potions, if used, don't have to be turned in. This would be a valuable ability if there were any worth using over the Elemental forms, but there aren't.
4) Even the ability to Polymorph into Elemental Forms from the Relic are underwhelming, it still puts the Druid fairly low on the damage dealing spectrum.

I'm putting this here because there isn't a separate thread for it. I would request the Druid Legendary abilities be modified as follows, to make it at least in the ballpark of power level of the other two Spellcaster Legendary tokens. This would not require any changes to the actual token or any sort of token exchange, they can very easily and quickly be made in the Tokendb.com entry.

1) Also give the Druid an extra spell box per level that can be cast as instant. The Druid class is going to fall far behind the Wizard class without also having that bonus.
2) For just the Legendary, remove the restriction of only one polymorph form per room. That restriction was added on at the last minute, and I think it was a mistake. The main argument for the restriction was that the Druid could attack as one Elemental form and defend as another. That comes into play in a small percentage of rooms, and even with those it isn't a huge advantage. A Legendary polymorpher should be able to do more than one form per room, just for the fun of it.
3) Modify the Elemental bonuses so that they're not just simply damage resistance. In particular, the Air Elemental form should have Flight.

Now is the ideal time to revise the Druid Legendary token, because the URs for it are still available as PYPs. I think the three spellcasting classes should have been done in the same year to start with so that they could be made consistent, so revising the Druid Legendary now is a way to do that.

Mike I have heard others share your sentiment regarding the druid legendary. May I suggest you create a separate thread so this post doesn’t get lost in the the needed discussion of the Wizard legendary

Justice wrote:

Mike Steele wrote: Jeff, thanks for removing the Polymorph Familiar tokens! I think the way you plan on addressing it in 2021 is a far better way to go.

The Wizard Legendary is still extremely powerful, I think overly powerful. And every single ability is aimed at increasing the amount of damage the Wizard does, who is already one of the top damage dealing classes.

1) Ability to use any 5 scrolls as spells, lets the Wizard situationally choose the best five scrolls for any particular Dungeon, including elemental vulnerabilities, without consuming them.
2) Bonus Spell box at each Spell Level, which can be cast as instants. This is huge, it's not only extra spells, but gives the Wizard the ability to cast two spells per round, nearly doubling damage capability on those turns.
3) Medallion of Mystic Mouth built-in gives them free action Wand usage when not using free action spells, especially valuable since it is also neck slot.
4) Mad Enchanter's Charm: In my mind by far the most powerful and broken UR ever printed, significant extra damage every time it's used.

Compare this with the very underpowered Druid Legendary, which almost certainly gets less of an increase from the Relic than any other Class Legendary (the below is borrowed from Phillip Goodman). The summary is that the only real bonus currently from Relic to Legendary for the Druid is an average damage wheel increase of 1.5 points, which is insignificant.

1) 1.5 average damage increase on damage wheel
2) Can cast spells while polymorphed (useless since you can already unpoly -> cast -> poly every round from the Relic)
3) Polymorph potions, if used, don't have to be turned in. This would be a valuable ability if there were any worth using over the Elemental forms, but there aren't.
4) Even the ability to Polymorph into Elemental Forms from the Relic are underwhelming, it still puts the Druid fairly low on the damage dealing spectrum.

I'm putting this here because there isn't a separate thread for it. I would request the Druid Legendary abilities be modified as follows, to make it at least in the ballpark of power level of the other two Spellcaster Legendary tokens. This would not require any changes to the actual token or any sort of token exchange, they can very easily and quickly be made in the Tokendb.com entry.

1) Also give the Druid an extra spell box per level that can be cast as instant. The Druid class is going to fall far behind the Wizard class without also having that bonus.
2) For just the Legendary, remove the restriction of only one polymorph form per room. That restriction was added on at the last minute, and I think it was a mistake. The main argument for the restriction was that the Druid could attack as one Elemental form and defend as another. That comes into play in a small percentage of rooms, and even with those it isn't a huge advantage. A Legendary polymorpher should be able to do more than one form per room, just for the fun of it.
3) Modify the Elemental bonuses so that they're not just simply damage resistance. In particular, the Air Elemental form should have Flight.

Now is the ideal time to revise the Druid Legendary token, because the URs for it are still available as PYPs. I think the three spellcasting classes should have been done in the same year to start with so that they could be made consistent, so revising the Druid Legendary now is a way to do that.

Mike I have heard others share your sentiment regarding the druid legendary. May I suggest you create a separate thread so this post doesn’t get lost in the the needed discussion of the Wizard legendary

I'm not sure if Jeff is reading the separate threads created by others during the design process. If Jeff creates a Druid Legendary thread I'll happily move the post there. I share your concern that it might get lost, but I think Jeff is going to read every single post in this thread so hopefully it won't.

This version has an issue with too many (or few) free actions, I think that is the consensus also.

MoMM and MEC are powerful, I like the idea that the spellbook has a MEC in the cover.

Can a person wear a MEC and the legendary and cut twice a round?

I like Mathew’s analysis about losses and gains, it highlights that significant equity was lost, and some potential gained.

Instead of doubling down on old tokens, or consumables (well maybe consumables) could the wizards get free action spells returned and steal the magic of the ring of sacrifice? It’s not MEC, it is 1/room, and it wasn’t allocated originally, they researched its power. Activating a item is a free action right? It would mean choosing between free action spell and a MEC like action of the ring of sacrifice. The free action spells would replace MoMM and the ring of sacrifice research would replace the MEC part.

I really loved the previous version, and I hope this suggestion is in line with wizard like thinking, monks sometimes do not have the intellect, sometimes we use the base robes!

macxdmg wrote: Can a person wear a MEC and the legendary and cut twice a round?

Hahaha I can imagine Dave now!

So that’s why clerics are getting all the FA heals

Justice wrote:

macxdmg wrote: Can a person wear a MEC and the legendary and cut twice a round?

Hahaha I can imagine Dave now!

So that’s why clerics are getting all the FA heals

Yes, it is all just to keep Dave alive

No no no no,
I liked the previous version better. I really dislike having to use consumables. Many have already pointed out that MoMM effect will only have at best 5 rounds of play (based 9 rounds of combat). I recommend getting rid of that feature.
Here's my suggestion, Go back to the previous version with the following modifications:
Can double ALL spell damage 1/room*
*May not equip MEC

This gives Wizards the ability to feel once per room they are on par with other damage dealers.
This frees up a charm slot for the wizards and put several MEC into the market place making it easier for other new wizards to purchase and use .