TOPIC: 2021 Wizard Relic & Legendary Feedback

Unable to vote with how the form is setup.

Not in favor of emphasizing MoMM or MEC. Maybe MoMM as a minor item but wands are consumed.

Only one I might have a passing interest in is "Add +1 additional spell of each level, castable as a free action (prior proposal, minus familiar)".

Doubling damage is not needed to survive at Nightmare or even to put an equip party over the top.

Since I am retooling to be a hammer thrower based on recent developments I would never transmute to get it instead keep with Charm Necklace and go the route of two eye slots for Fae and Snippers. Same for relic and if spell medallion stays then that is not something I would ever used.

I would still cast alertness everyroom, ironskin for combat rooms based on using the card and other tokens. And maybe on occassion cast fireball to get 20 damage across the board if there were mulitple opponents. The rest of the spells on the card would be relegated to antiquity.

" What's my name?" smack with a thrown hammer. Repeat each turn.

Looking at the current version, is anyone surprised it doesn't also allow the mage to be part of the cabal?

Dave wrote:

Matthew Galambus wrote: Mad Evoker's Charm is a strategy that must be built around; on its own, that token is not good in isolation (a legendary should be). It requires some source of healing -which will likely come from the actions of others. I don't think a class Legendary should be indirectly telling another class what to do. Some call it a class defining token, but just because its in your "BIS" build doesn't mean that it should define 2 classes. (Admittedly the Elf Wizard's ability to polymorph won't exactly see much use from me)

This is the part of MEC that too many people overlook. If you go down this path, you can take two approaches. One, you equip it, but only plan to use it in the final room. Two, you plan to make it part of your attack strategy. Now you have to make sure you have support and/or more hp to support its use.

Imagine if you're a melee class and you have a charm that lets you double your damage wheel of your weapon, but you take 15 points of unmitigateable damage (I say 15, because melee classes start with more hp than a wizard, so the cost has to be comparable). First, would you use it? Second, if you do, you certainly will need to replace other slots with tokens that boost your hp. Suddenly, 70 hp might not be enough. That's MEC.

Yup.

I equip mec, and I usually use it once per room - maybe twice in the boss room.

I usually heal myself with distilled healing.

I don’t just plan to use it every round and get topped up by a healer every round or two.

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Dave wrote:

Matthew Galambus wrote: Mad Evoker's Charm is a strategy that must be built around; on its own, that token is not good in isolation (a legendary should be). It requires some source of healing -which will likely come from the actions of others. I don't think a class Legendary should be indirectly telling another class what to do. Some call it a class defining token, but just because its in your "BIS" build doesn't mean that it should define 2 classes. (Admittedly the Elf Wizard's ability to polymorph won't exactly see much use from me)

This is the part of MEC that too many people overlook. If you go down this path, you can take two approaches. One, you equip it, but only plan to use it in the final room. Two, you plan to make it part of your attack strategy. Now you have to make sure you have support and/or more hp to support its use.

Imagine if you're a melee class and you have a charm that lets you double your damage wheel of your weapon, but you take 15 points of unmitigateable damage (I say 15, because melee classes start with more hp than a wizard, so the cost has to be comparable). First, would you use it? Second, if you do, you certainly will need to replace other slots with tokens that boost your hp. Suddenly, 70 hp might not be enough. That's MEC.

Yup.

I equip mec, and I usually use it once per room - maybe twice in the boss room.

I usually heal myself with distilled healing.

I don’t just plan to use it every round and get topped up by a healer every round or two.

I equip it.

I use it based on the general healing levels of the party.

I generally trigger it in room 1. If chunks of healing go out and we've got large healing numbers I may continue to trigger it more heavily. If healing is light or low numbers I usually only trigger it on spells that keep be above 50% HP and are a gain on HP spent vs damage dealt (l2 and l3 spells)

I usually have a stash of healing with me and a Tulz to pop one if I need to

Chris Yurwitz wrote: In my world, the relic would have rares in the spellbook, 4 or 5 free action casts from the spell book per dungeon, and 1 extra charm slot. Free action spells would not get a chance at skill check bonus so as not to slow things down.

The Legendary would have the above, but with unlimited free action casts from the spellbook instead of limited, 2 charms instead of one, and bardic damage (earcuff of inspiration effect).

To expand on my thoughts for last night, I’m latching on to an idea that the spellbook should be a free action item only. At the UR level, you get 1 cast per room as a free action from the book (no skill check for +3). This could put it on par with a MMM, and scale as the wizard gets more powerful. At relic, you get rares in the book, 2 casts as free actions per room, and 1 charm slot. At legendary get unlimited casts as free actions from the book, 2 charms, and the bardic damage. You wouldn’t get a second fireball/lightning, but an unlimited free action spell helps for 3-round combats and grind. The extra charm slots and freeing up a powerful ear slot are pretty good in my opinion. You could replace the bardic damage with a fix spell damage instead, but I like the idea of bardic on here better.

Matthew Hayward wrote: Calling All Wizard - Helps us Get Aligned

The idea of the survey below is to find if we can all agree on some proposal or other as the best of the bunch.

I did my best to represent all the proposals here in this thread: there are 10 (including the current proposal from TPTB).

Please take this survey which force ranks all 10 options as your 1st, 2nd, 3rd, ... 10th favorite choice.

I hope that a miracle occurs and we can find 1-2 items that we all agree are the best of the bunch, or at least eliminate some options if we all agree that idea A is better than idea B.

Survey Advice! Read the power descriptions carefully:

All powers include the current Relic.

Note that Item 2: "Prior Proposal Minus Familiar" is strictly worse than option #3 in terms of effect- but might be more desirable if you believe item #2 could get made by TPTB, but item #3 would not - for example.

Also note that items 4-6 grant you an additional spell at each level, but these additional spells are not inherently castable as a free action. Those proposals also include a cast any spell as a free action 2/room.


I'm sorry the formatting is so totally awful - I did my best.


You'll need to scroll the form and provide a single answer for each of the 10 options as your 1st though 10th choice.

Thanks for being willing to engage with this! Come on - we're Wizards - if anyone is going to solve this with a survey and a spreadsheet - it's us!

Survey at:

forms.gle/wioPUYCQUKyCrgKJ7

Survey Closes at Midnight Eastern Time Tomorrow, Tuesday August 25th, and I'll report the results here (you can see the results so far after you take your survey though).

11 responses so far - keep 'em coming. I'll post results and analysis after the survey closes at 9 PM eastern time today.

Please take the survey if you haven't, and want to help us try to learn if there is a single design we can all agree is more preferable than alternatives.

Survey at:

forms.gle/wioPUYCQUKyCrgKJ7

For the curious, here are the 10 effects expressed in the survey (not necessarily in the order presented in the survey or with the exact wording of the survey, but the same effects):


The current Relic, which is:
Jinn’s Spellbook Medallion + Rare Scrolls
+1 additional spell at each level cast as a free action

MMM = Medallion of Mystic Mouth Effect
MeC = Mad Evoker’s Charm Effect (may not equip send MeC)

A. Relic and MMM and MeC (the current proposal)

B. Relic and +1 additional spell at each level, cast as a free action (the prior proposal, minus Familiar)

C. Relic and +1 additional spell at each level, cast as a free action and may double all spell damage in round 1/room but may not equip MeC

D. Relic and add cast a spell as a free action 2/room and add 1 spell at each level and wands are not consumed

E. Relic and add cast a spell as a free action 2/room and add 1 spell at each level and slid spells can crit on a 19-20

F. Relic and add cast a spell as a free action 2/room and add 1 spell at each level and 2/game double all spell damage for one round

G. Relic and MMM and both of: You don’t have to turn in damage wands. You may turn in damage wands to add spell damage bonus to wands.

H. Relic and MeC and 2 additional charm slots

I. Relic and MeC and you may cast a spell, read a scroll, or use a wand as a free action (X/game) where X is around 5.

J. Relic and MeC and you can cast Level 0 (or Level 1, or both?) Spells as a free action

edwin wrote: Unable to vote with how the form is setup.

Not in favor of emphasizing MoMM or MEC. Maybe MoMM as a minor item but wands are consumed.

Only one I might have a passing interest in is "Add +1 additional spell of each level, castable as a free action (prior proposal, minus familiar)".

Doubling damage is not needed to survive at Nightmare or even to put an equip party over the top.

Since I am retooling to be a hammer thrower based on recent developments I would never transmute to get it instead keep with Charm Necklace and go the route of two eye slots for Fae and Snippers. Same for relic and if spell medallion stays then that is not something I would ever used.

I would still cast alertness everyroom, ironskin for combat rooms based on using the card and other tokens. And maybe on occassion cast fireball to get 20 damage across the board if there were mulitple opponents. The rest of the spells on the card would be relegated to antiquity.

" What's my name?" smack with a thrown hammer. Repeat each turn.

Easy to get to +20 to hit/+24 damage with throwing the hammer. This is without any consumables and no bard song. And not equiping any potential 2021 tokens.

Dave wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

NightGod wrote:

OrionW wrote: For better or worse, MEC is class defining for wizards. It makes sense to see it on the Legendary.

I agree that it makes sense to see it (or a similar effect) on the Legendary. I don't agree that it makes sense to see it as the only effect on the neck that most people will use regularly, because the other option uses consumable items that most wizards have given up on.

If we see a MEC like effect I would prefer it to be better than the MEC.

2x all damage for 1 round x/game so we actually get spell damage bonuses added in for once.

This is where my thoughts are at right now. If you're going to include MEC, then make it MEC+.
I also agree with the previous post that pointed out that every year, the impact of MEC becomes a little smaller.

I think the MEC is still hugely powerful, it cumulatively probably adds more additional damage than any other UR other than maybe Bard instruments. If the Wizards don't want it anymore, the Druids will take it off your hands.

What I would actual prefer for the relic is
+4 Dexterity
+3 to physical range attack damage
A single spell box added to the card to allow one additional casting of a any spell as a free action in exchange for marking off an equivalent number of spell levels. You would have a choice on whether you would do zero or one additional casting of a spell as a free action.

What I would actual prefer for the legendary is
+8 Dexterity
+6 to physical range attack damage
Two spell boxes added to the card to allow two additional castings of a spell (two different or the same one twice) as a free action in exchange for marking off an equivalent number of spell levels. You would have a choice on whether you would do zero, one or two additional castings of a spell as a free action.

This would fit into a elven fighter/wizard concept where you do physical damage at range and supplement it with some tailorable spell casting/

edwin wrote: What I would actual prefer for the relic is
+4 Dexterity
+3 to physical range attack damage
A single spell box added to the card to allow one additional casting of a any spell as a free action in exchange for marking off an equivalent number of spell levels. You would have a choice on whether you would do zero or one additional casting of a spell as a free action.

What I would actual prefer for the legendary is
+8 Dexterity
+6 to physical range attack damage
Two spell boxes added to the card to allow two additional castings of a spell (two different or the same one twice) as a free action in exchange for marking off an equivalent number of spell levels. You would have a choice on whether you would do zero, one or two additional castings of a spell as a free action.

This would fit into a elven fighter/wizard concept where you do physical damage at range and supplement it with some tailorable spell casting/

0/10 interest in this design. It in no way supports the core design of a spellcasting Wizard in my opinion.

Chris Yurwitz wrote:

Chris Yurwitz wrote: In my world, the relic would have rares in the spellbook, 4 or 5 free action casts from the spell book per dungeon, and 1 extra charm slot. Free action spells would not get a chance at skill check bonus so as not to slow things down.

The Legendary would have the above, but with unlimited free action casts from the spellbook instead of limited, 2 charms instead of one, and bardic damage (earcuff of inspiration effect).

To expand on my thoughts for last night, I’m latching on to an idea that the spellbook should be a free action item only. At the UR level, you get 1 cast per room as a free action from the book (no skill check for +3). This could put it on par with a MMM, and scale as the wizard gets more powerful. At relic, you get rares in the book, 2 casts as free actions per room, and 1 charm slot. At legendary get unlimited casts as free actions from the book, 2 charms, and the bardic damage. You wouldn’t get a second fireball/lightning, but an unlimited free action spell helps for 3-round combats and grind. The extra charm slots and freeing up a powerful ear slot are pretty good in my opinion. You could replace the bardic damage with a fix spell damage instead, but I like the idea of bardic on here better.

To be forward, I loathe the idea of a class relic/legendary including slot expanders. Our token should not also be dependent on another class being in the party either. Unlimited anything should never come lightly as well.

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

edwin wrote: What I would actual prefer for the relic is
+4 Dexterity
+3 to physical range attack damage
A single spell box added to the card to allow one additional casting of a any spell as a free action in exchange for marking off an equivalent number of spell levels. You would have a choice on whether you would do zero or one additional casting of a spell as a free action.

What I would actual prefer for the legendary is
+8 Dexterity
+6 to physical range attack damage
Two spell boxes added to the card to allow two additional castings of a spell (two different or the same one twice) as a free action in exchange for marking off an equivalent number of spell levels. You would have a choice on whether you would do zero, one or two additional castings of a spell as a free action.

This would fit into a elven fighter/wizard concept where you do physical damage at range and supplement it with some tailorable spell casting/

0/10 interest in this design. It in no way supports the core design of a spellcasting Wizard in my opinion.

Matches my sentiments on the 10 options in the poll.