TOPIC: 2021 Wizard Relic & Legendary Feedback

My initial reaction to this iteration left me wishing for the previous legendary. This one just feels...lack luster...It does not feel nearly as exciting to me; combined with Jinn's becoming a neck item to not allow stacking of any potential utility scrolls, and this is missing the "It Factor" for me. The Relic to me is perfect; let's leave that as is, please.

Totally comprehend, respect, and appreciate a more focused look at familiars at a later date. Again for the record, I thought they were a fun little bonus. Removing them though does seem to take away a bit of the "Fun Factor/Whimsy".

Let's take a minute for that name too.... for real though. it took me a minute to figure out. Haha. It doesn't exactly roll off the tongue. Sounds like a type of tobacco a snake would smoke. "Slither down to your local convenience store and crack open a pack of Slithigarettes today"

The removal of the extra spell slots (especially at 1st level) on the legendary and moving Jinn's to the neck essentially guarantee that the only spells used from the Mage Medallion ability will strictly be for damage. Those cool things in magical Christmas land we were all dreaming up, those aren't going to happen? Damage scrolls all the way now. Which is a shame because it was a fun mechanic.

The current version has us trading being even more explosive for a shorter lifespan of both spells and HP. Adding the extra 4 spells to be used as Free Actions prolonged our ability to be explosive, and the people that wanted to equip an Evoker's still could. That decision is taken from us by urging its use. I suppose I'm a dark elf now that will be cutting myself for blood magic. For the record, I do not currently own a Mad Evoker's for a few reasons -for starters they are hard to find, but that strategy does not appeal to me either.

Mad Evoker's Charm is a strategy that must be built around; on its own, that token is not good in isolation (a legendary should be). It requires some source of healing -which will likely come from the actions of others. I don't think a class Legendary should be indirectly telling another class what to do. Some call it a class defining token, but just because its in your "BIS" build doesn't mean that it should define 2 classes. (Admittedly the Elf Wizard's ability to polymorph won't exactly see much use from me)

Speaking of two classes: Having the Medallion of Mystic Mouth effect also promotes playing Human Wizard. (and that's just Elf-ist) Having 4 rounds of free action spells is an awkward spot for using wands too. Do you use a wand in the 2nd combat room or not? What if there are 4 combats this dungeon? Did I bring enough? Did I budget my FA spells appropriately for the boss? There is only 1 currently available token to boost wands as well with potentially 2 more coming up. Having to turn in wands with a Legendary ability and the likely higher Phhilosopher's Stone cost doesn't exactly jive either.

Personally, I think all class relics/legendaries should just be "Plug & Play" while having a clear direction. So far they all have those traits; this legendary, however, feels like its being pulled in two different directions right now. Do we focus on wand damage or do we focus on spells? Should I maximize HP for Evoker's or do I hope to make some divine friends.

I fully recognize that anyone buying/crafting a legendary is likely to have drank the Kool-Aid with the rest of us, but there will be new players that this will not appeal to at all. Imagine joining a PUG, do you even really want to lend this thing out? It's a lot to explain (worth it at the relic level), but the main focus of the legendary upgrade revolves around MEC. So now tell that 4th level wizard that they have to give up 2/3 of their starting HP to do an additional 18 damage -that's gonna be a bit disappointing for them. Ask anyone who uses MEC how much healing they bring with them (Excluding Dave on that part)? Wizards with MEC already have to look out for themselves in terms of HP. This get a bit complicated since our free actions are now being taken up by actual casting, so using a Pouch of Tulz or Canteen of Quaffing is off the table as well should you need mid combat heals.

I thought the last iteration of the legendary was fantastic. Replace the Familiar with some other fun little effect on the previous version and you'll have my undivided attention in terms of trying to craft this Legendary ASAP.

edwin wrote: Previous expressed my opinion on both MoMM and MEC. Both are not items I would ever use including similar powers.

I am ok if it ends up like the ranger legendary where the main power only applies to one type of wizard. Even if all powers of legendary apply to types of wizards I choose not to play.

I would prefer we not end up in the same spot as the Rangers or Druids where the Legendary token is lamented as not worth crafting.

I'd be fine if the final effect set places the legendary specific bump into something I don't care for as a play style but I'd hope we at least get an effect bump from Relic to Legendary that gives an expected change that we'd seen from UR to Relic. (the +1 spell boxes as Free Action)

Matthew Galambus wrote: My initial reaction to this iteration left me wishing for the previous legendary. This one just feels...lack luster...It does not feel nearly as exciting to me; combined with Jinn's becoming a neck item to not allow stacking of any potential utility scrolls, and this is missing the "It Factor" for me. The Relic to me is perfect; let's leave that as is, please.

Totally comprehend, respect, and appreciate a more focused look at familiars at a later date. Again for the record, I thought they were a fun little bonus. Removing them though does seem to take away a bit of the "Fun Factor/Whimsy".

Let's take a minute for that name too.... for real though. it took me a minute to figure out. Haha. It doesn't exactly roll off the tongue. Sounds like a type of tobacco a snake would smoke. "Slither down to your local convenience store and crack open a pack of Slithigarettes today"

The removal of the extra spell slots (especially at 1st level) on the legendary and moving Jinn's to the neck essentially guarantee that the only spells used from the Mage Medallion ability will strictly be for damage. Those cool things in magical Christmas land we were all dreaming up, those aren't going to happen? Damage scrolls all the way now. Which is a shame because it was a fun mechanic.

The current version has us trading being even more explosive for a shorter lifespan of both spells and HP. Adding the extra 4 spells to be used as Free Actions prolonged our ability to be explosive, and the people that wanted to equip an Evoker's still could. That decision is taken from us by urging its use. I suppose I'm a dark elf now that will be cutting myself for blood magic. For the record, I do not currently own a Mad Evoker's for a few reasons -for starters they are hard to find, but that strategy does not appeal to me either.

Mad Evoker's Charm is a strategy that must be built around; on its own, that token is not good in isolation (a legendary should be). It requires some source of healing -which will likely come from the actions of others. I don't think a class Legendary should be indirectly telling another class what to do. Some call it a class defining token, but just because its in your "BIS" build doesn't mean that it should define 2 classes. (Admittedly the Elf Wizard's ability to polymorph won't exactly see much use from me)

Speaking of two classes: Having the Medallion of Mystic Mouth effect also promotes playing Human Wizard. (and that's just Elf-ist) Having 4 rounds of free action spells is an awkward spot for using wands too. Do you use a wand in the 2nd combat room or not? What if there are 4 combats this dungeon? Did I bring enough? Did I budget my FA spells appropriately for the boss? There is only 1 currently available token to boost wands as well with potentially 2 more coming up. Having to turn in wands with a Legendary ability and the likely higher Phhilosopher's Stone cost doesn't exactly jive either.

Personally, I think all class relics/legendaries should just be "Plug & Play" while having a clear direction. So far they all have those traits; this legendary, however, feels like its being pulled in two different directions right now. Do we focus on wand damage or do we focus on spells? Should I maximize HP for Evoker's or do I hope to make some divine friends.

I fully recognize that anyone buying/crafting a legendary is likely to have drank the Kool-Aid with the rest of us, but there will be new players that this will not appeal to at all. Imagine joining a PUG, do you even really want to lend this thing out? It's a lot to explain (worth it at the relic level), but the main focus of the legendary upgrade revolves around MEC. So now tell that 4th level wizard that they have to give up 2/3 of their starting HP to do an additional 18 damage -that's gonna be a bit disappointing for them. Ask anyone who uses MEC how much healing they bring with them (Excluding Dave on that part)? Wizards with MEC already have to look out for themselves in terms of HP. This get a bit complicated since our free actions are now being taken up by actual casting, so using a Pouch of Tulz or Canteen of Quaffing is off the table as well should you need mid combat heals.

I thought the last iteration of the legendary was fantastic. Replace the Familiar with some other fun little effect on the previous version and you'll have my undivided attention in terms of trying to craft this Legendary ASAP.

+ like eleventy twelve?

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

edwin wrote: Previous expressed my opinion on both MoMM and MEC. Both are not items I would ever use including similar powers.

I am ok if it ends up like the ranger legendary where the main power only applies to one type of wizard. Even if all powers of legendary apply to types of wizards I choose not to play.

I would prefer we not end up in the same spot as the Rangers or Druids where the Legendary token is lamented as not worth crafting.

I'd be fine if the final effect set places the legendary specific bump into something I don't care for as a play style but I'd hope we at least get an effect bump from Relic to Legendary that gives an expected change that we'd seen from UR to Relic. (the +1 spell boxes as Free Action)

I agree with you. Not just hopeful of anything close to a consensus of 50%+ due to various play styles and options on playing an effective wizard in TD. Reads like many camps. One wants scrolls, another wants wands, another wants hurting themselves, another wants spell damage and even more other options. Why I was suggesting items that would work for all but then non sliders camp appeared.

Arcanist Kolixela wrote: I think we should push for returning the +2 spellboxes as FA that the last iteration had and suggest something as a replacement for what the familiar was going to be.

I think there's value space left at the legendary for something small beyond the +2 boxes.

+5 Spell damage (WAY less than other Legendary tokens have provided)
Slide Spells critical
1/room cast a spell on card without consuming
Consume 2 of level X spells to regen 1 of X+1 as an instant action
ETC...

Fully agree regarding something small.
+5 is possibly even too much since it is pseudo +10 damage. I'd be totally happy with +3 though.

The ability to effectively slide crits with damage spells seems small and fun to me. I know many will hate it, but those are probably the same people that didn't want the familiar to slide.

The cast 1/room without marking also seems like no fun to me. Walking up to a DM 9 times and saying cast Fireball/Lightning Storm and not needing to manage spells will get boring fast.

Your spell consumption idea sounds cool, but I fear it would just lead to "Walk up to DM. Cast Fireball/Lightning Storm"

Of your proposed ideas, I like the "sliding spells crit on 20" (even 19 might be OK) the best. Followed by a small damage boost.

Arcanist Kolixela wrote: lose 10 HP as an instant action - Double all damage of spells this round
Can not equip Mad Evoker's Charm

This is likely too good. It would be awesome if we got it though.

One mechanical question - how would we cast 2 sliding spells in a round? I prefer sliding spells and love casting them, especially the level 2 spells. I would totally want to cast 2 of them in a single round. Would we use an unused puck? Probably an easy solution, but would want it clarified if we are not allowed to cast 2 sliding spells in a round.

I like the human wizard over the elf wizard for several reasons. I like the interaction of MMM and wand mastery, and I like the extra spells (again, the 2 level 2 sliding spells are fun for me). I feel the elf wizard has lost its way because it doesn’t get a lot of support at the higher levels for what it does. Maybe I’m wrong and there are polymorphing elf wizards out there at nightmare+ levels. A part of me was hoping for a major redesign of the 2 classes would happen in conjunction (make INT more relevant for to-hit and some extra spell damage, plus more INT modifiers), but I know that ship has sailed.

So what I’m left with is the question of will the relic and legendary be worth spending the money on. In real dollars it will be the difference between a $500 order and a $2,000 order, plus some bartering for GP with some items I have that I want to sell/trade.

There are lots of different styles of play, and levels of damage. I like sliding (have I mentioned that?), cutting myself (I idolize Dave), and doing free action damage with MMM & Flourite Cube. I do not envy Jeff trying to please all of these different styles and preferences. His choices here will affect some real dollar investments from us.

I started only a few years ago, tracked down an MEC and MMM, and got my spell bonus up to 19. Still way behind a lot of powerful wizards, but OP (with my guild) for Nightmare, and underpowered for epic. The relic and legendary don’t do anything for me on Nightmare because when I play with my guild, the monsters are barely alive by the time they get to my damage. I don’t need anything else and I’m hesitant to spend more money if I’m not getting the enjoyment out of it, no matter what is on them. If Epic can be more available, I’d probably want to stretch my group toward that and I’m more likely to go for the new tokens. If the relic/legendary are worth it, my current MMM would then be used toward Aaron’s Sunhide Robe so I’d be making two Legendaries instead of none.

Selfishly, I would like;
- free action damage every round preferably with full spell damage bonus. I’d be okay if the free action spell was limited to 0 and 1st level spells (or spellbook spells), or wands with wand damage on top of spell damage. It would be great if my flourite cube and wand mastery aren’t wasted, but I would understand if it never comes into play.
- I’m okay if MEC isn’t in the legendary. I’m fine equipping it in a charm slot. A future reprint would be helpful to newer wizards and wouldn’t “waste” the ones we have now. Granting an extra charm slot or 2 would help those with the charm necklace accept it. I’d like that a lot too, so let’s say 2 charm slots.
- bardic damage to free up an ear slot. The rare ear is so powerful when you have a legendary bard you have to pass up a lot of other great ear pieces. Putting the bardic damage on the legendary is like putting Ice Crag’s, or Earcuff of Orbits, or Arcane Earcuffs on it. For me it would be Ice Crag’s. That’s a good add to a legendary.

In my world, the relic would have rares in the spellbook, 4 or 5 free action casts from the spell book per dungeon, and 1 extra charm slot. Free action spells would not get a chance at skill check bonus so as not to slow things down.

The Legendary would have the above, but with unlimited free action casts from the spellbook instead of limited, 2 charms instead of one, and bardic damage (earcuff of inspiration effect).

The above would dismiss all wand stuff (unless wands could go into the spellbook too), but help out grind players who would run out of action spell slots, but never free action spells. The legendary effects plus an ear slot (replacing inspiration), 2 charms, and an IS slot (replacing Flourite Cube) sounds pretty good.

I’m tired now so I’m not sure if this would be overpowered or underwhelming. I’ll get a clear head and take the survey tomorrow.

Matthew Galambus wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote: I think we should push for returning the +2 spellboxes as FA that the last iteration had and suggest something as a replacement for what the familiar was going to be.

I think there's value space left at the legendary for something small beyond the +2 boxes.

+5 Spell damage (WAY less than other Legendary tokens have provided)
Slide Spells critical
1/room cast a spell on card without consuming
Consume 2 of level X spells to regen 1 of X+1 as an instant action
ETC...

Fully agree regarding something small.
+5 is possibly even too much since it is pseudo +10 damage. I'd be totally happy with +3 though.

How do you figure the +10?

MeC doesn't double spell bonus damage, only base damage. Maybe you are thinking something else (or are you saying because you'd cast 2 spells most rounds?)

Chris Yurwitz wrote: One mechanical question - how would we cast 2 sliding spells in a round? I prefer sliding spells and love casting them, especially the level 2 spells. I would totally want to cast 2 of them in a single round. Would we use an unused puck? Probably an easy solution, but would want it clarified if we are not allowed to cast 2 sliding spells in a round.

Interesting question. It's possible now without this token anyway lots of different ways.

I'm not sure I've seen it tried ever though.

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Matthew Galambus wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote: I think we should push for returning the +2 spellboxes as FA that the last iteration had and suggest something as a replacement for what the familiar was going to be.

I think there's value space left at the legendary for something small beyond the +2 boxes.

+5 Spell damage (WAY less than other Legendary tokens have provided)
Slide Spells critical
1/room cast a spell on card without consuming
Consume 2 of level X spells to regen 1 of X+1 as an instant action
ETC...

Fully agree regarding something small.
+5 is possibly even too much since it is pseudo +10 damage. I'd be totally happy with +3 though.

How do you figure the +10?

MeC doesn't double spell bonus damage, only base damage. Maybe you are thinking something else (or are you saying because you'd cast 2 spells most rounds?)

The 2 spells part. The +5 modifier would apply to both castings.

Matthew Galambus wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Matthew Galambus wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote: I think we should push for returning the +2 spellboxes as FA that the last iteration had and suggest something as a replacement for what the familiar was going to be.

I think there's value space left at the legendary for something small beyond the +2 boxes.

+5 Spell damage (WAY less than other Legendary tokens have provided)
Slide Spells critical
1/room cast a spell on card without consuming
Consume 2 of level X spells to regen 1 of X+1 as an instant action
ETC...

Fully agree regarding something small.
+5 is possibly even too much since it is pseudo +10 damage. I'd be totally happy with +3 though.

How do you figure the +10?

MeC doesn't double spell bonus damage, only base damage. Maybe you are thinking something else (or are you saying because you'd cast 2 spells most rounds?)

The 2 spells part. The +5 modifier would apply to both castings.

Barbarian legendary is +10
Monk Legendary is +7 twice
Ranger Legendary is +9

I would say Wizard at +5 is balanced, even calculating in LIMITED double casting.

Matthew Galambus wrote: Mad Evoker's Charm is a strategy that must be built around; on its own, that token is not good in isolation (a legendary should be). It requires some source of healing -which will likely come from the actions of others. I don't think a class Legendary should be indirectly telling another class what to do. Some call it a class defining token, but just because its in your "BIS" build doesn't mean that it should define 2 classes. (Admittedly the Elf Wizard's ability to polymorph won't exactly see much use from me)

This is the part of MEC that too many people overlook. If you go down this path, you can take two approaches. One, you equip it, but only plan to use it in the final room. Two, you plan to make it part of your attack strategy. Now you have to make sure you have support and/or more hp to support its use.

Imagine if you're a melee class and you have a charm that lets you double your damage wheel of your weapon, but you take 15 points of unmitigateable damage (I say 15, because melee classes start with more hp than a wizard, so the cost has to be comparable). First, would you use it? Second, if you do, you certainly will need to replace other slots with tokens that boost your hp. Suddenly, 70 hp might not be enough. That's MEC.

Bob Chasan wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote: Calling All Wizard - Helps us Get Aligned

The idea of the survey below is to find if we can all agree on some proposal or other as the best of the bunch.

I did my best to represent all the proposals here in this thread: there are 10 (including the current proposal from TPTB).

Please take this survey which force ranks all 10 options as your 1st, 2nd, 3rd, ... 10th favorite choice.

I hope that a miracle occurs and we can find 1-2 items that we all agree are the best of the bunch, or at least eliminate some options if we all agree that idea A is better than idea B.

Survey Advice! Read the power descriptions carefully:

All powers include the current Relic.

Note that Item 2: "Prior Proposal Minus Familiar" is strictly worse than option #3 in terms of effect- but might be more desirable if you believe item #2 could get made by TPTB, but item #3 would not - for example.

Also note that items 4-6 grant you an additional spell at each level, but these additional spells are not inherently castable as a free action. Those proposals also include a cast any spell as a free action 2/room.


I'm sorry the formatting is so totally awful - I did my best.


You'll need to scroll the form and provide a single answer for each of the 10 options as your 1st though 10th choice.

Thanks for being willing to engage with this! Come on - we're Wizards - if anyone is going to solve this with a survey and a spreadsheet - it's us!

Survey at:

forms.gle/wioPUYCQUKyCrgKJ7

Survey Closes at Midnight Eastern Time Tomorrow, Tuesday August 25th, and I'll report the results here (you can see the results so far after you take your survey though).

One note your last question - how important is something fun is widely variable. Familiar our reading Druid scrolls is about a 1 but getting 2 additional Psychic users is a 5+

And for me +psychic and scrolls are a 1, but things like familiar are a 5. So, I picked 3.