TOPIC: 2021 Fighter Relic & Legendary Feedback

Justice wrote: I want to be clear I support the current considerations for fighter and has been a improvement over previous designs.

All of the current relic paths are somewhat frontloaded slightly with options that are baked into the legendary.

People need to get out of here with the nerf hammer and that this is too powerful. As is in the current environment The chances where whirlwind may occur Is what 10 -15 % across an entire adventure season? This is a flavor mechanic. Trust me I hope we get more multi mob rooms in the future but I’m not getting my hopes up.

Yes the relic/legendary seems not very thematic but guess what? Fighters slide! Unless they give a mechanic that works for our sliding this current consideration its just ok. This pathway doesn’t really move the needle damage wise considering the other melee classes. This pathway just allows the fighter to their job a bit better, helps use the tools that are out there, and be a touch more resilient.

Yes it’s a good chunk of raw stats but in the end we have already seen str go down by 1. As a fighter I can already practically punch God so strength as a +to hit really has a ceiling under current monster stats.

Monk +7dmg on both attacks
Ranger +9dmg
Barbarian +10dmg

Fighter +3dmg

....

So yes I support a expanded crit range. At least there is skill in sliding that had to occur and that’s probably as thematic as we are going to get.

You forgot the 19-20 crit range on the monk Legendary and the 17-20 crit on the Rogue sneak attack.

Less damage than the Monk on 1 puck instead of two and the same crit range certainly doesn't shout overpowered to me.

And the Monk and Barbarian got to stack their UR tokens for +2 to each puck and +4 to 2H damage. So much more than the Fighters have option for.

Miathan wrote: How bout +4 dam
+2 dam for each puck between yours and the damage dot
May equip 2h weapons as one handed
Shield ac added to reflex saves.

This is thematic in your sliding and rewards it greatly

1) Fighters are sliders and strategic players... that is the only theme we have. Adding auto damage is not supporting the theme

2) I don't even know what you're trying to say with that second line but to Harlax's previous point, if it sounds too complicated to explain here in the forum, explaining it quickly to a DM in a dungeon during combat will be worse.

3) You may have missed this part of the discussion, but Jeff keeps including a shield bonus on the 5pt relic. We take this to mean, and observing this play out on other Class Legendary tokens, that he wants to further distinguish classes from each other. He seems to want the Fighter to have a shield and keep the 2-handed weapons in the hands of the Barbarian. I support this 100%.

FatalDrakkon wrote:

Justice wrote: Yes the relic/legendary seems not very thematic but guess what? Fighters slide! Unless they give a mechanic that works for our sliding this current consideration its just ok. ...This pathway just allows the fighter to their job a bit better, helps use the tools that are out there, and be a touch more resilient.

Yes it’s a good chunk of raw stats but in the end we have already seen str go down by 1. As a fighter I can already practically punch God so strength as a +to hit really has a ceiling under current monster stats.

Monk +7dmg on both attacks
Ranger +9dmg
Barbarian +10dmg

Fighter +3dmg
....

So yes I support a expanded crit range. At least there is skill in sliding that had to occur and that’s probably as thematic as we are going to get.

+1 amen brother

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:
You forgot the 19-20 crit range on the monk Legendary and the 17-20 crit on the Rogue sneak attack.

Less damage than the Monk on 1 puck instead of two and the same crit range certainly doesn't shout overpowered to me.

And the Monk and Barbarian got to stack their UR tokens for +2 to each puck and +4 to 2H damage. So much more than the Fighters have option for.

I'm right there with you guys and that is why I poked the bear with the 18-20 crit range. We need to be able to hang with the 100+ damage a Legendary Rogue is doing twice per combat.

As they stand, these are good tokens for players who enjoy sliding. Want to be even more overtly thematic? Give the Fighter a second WS and Dwarf Fighter a second Taunt per combat and call it a day.

SnakeEyes (Eric) wrote:

Miathan wrote: How bout +4 dam
+2 dam for each puck between yours and the damage dot
May equip 2h weapons as one handed
Shield ac added to reflex saves.

This is thematic in your sliding and rewards it greatly

1) Fighters are sliders and strategic players... that is the only theme we have. Adding auto damage is not supporting the theme

2) I don't even know what you're trying to say with that second line but to Harlax's previous point, if it sounds too complicated to explain here in the forum, explaining it quickly to a DM in a dungeon during combat will be worse.

3) You may have missed this part of the discussion, but Jeff keeps including a shield bonus on the 5pt relic. We take this to mean, and observing this play out on other Class Legendary tokens, that he wants to further distinguish classes from each other. He seems to want the Fighter to have a shield and keep the 2-handed weapons in the hands of the Barbarian. I support this 100%.

FatalDrakkon wrote:

Justice wrote: Yes the relic/legendary seems not very thematic but guess what? Fighters slide! Unless they give a mechanic that works for our sliding this current consideration its just ok. ...This pathway just allows the fighter to their job a bit better, helps use the tools that are out there, and be a touch more resilient.

Yes it’s a good chunk of raw stats but in the end we have already seen str go down by 1. As a fighter I can already practically punch God so strength as a +to hit really has a ceiling under current monster stats.

Monk +7dmg on both attacks
Ranger +9dmg
Barbarian +10dmg

Fighter +3dmg
....

So yes I support a expanded crit range. At least there is skill in sliding that had to occur and that’s probably as thematic as we are going to get.

As they stand, these are good tokens for players who enjoy sliding. Want to be even more overtly thematic? Give the Fighter a second WS and Dwarf Fighter a second Taunt per combat and call it a day.

Tried to clean up the quote chain a little.

This is why I kept suggesting the pre init slide for Fighter only. Fighters slide, and if you slide well you can crit before anyone else gets to attack, and then attack again with everyone else. That deals a lot more damage than the extra damage on the Barb and Monk chain, and it’s unlikely that they will catch up before the monster is dead.

SnakeEyes (Eric) wrote:

Miathan wrote: How bout +4 dam
+2 dam for each puck between yours and the damage dot
May equip 2h weapons as one handed
Shield ac added to reflex saves.

This is thematic in your sliding and rewards it greatly

2) I don't even know what you're trying to say with that second line but to Harlax's previous point, if it sounds too complicated to explain here in the forum, explaining it quickly to a DM in a dungeon during combat will be worse.

I may be misinterpreting, but I think what Moathan was going for was something like "well if Fighters are so good at sliding, then give them an extra skill challenge of trying to land a hit while trying to keep as many ally pucks as possible between the Fighters puck and the dot on the board"

It is an interesting idea. But feels problematic in execution. So many DMs slide pucks away as they deal with them. They'd need to change to always look for the two fighters first. And then there's defining what "between" means and having that handled consistently.

Feels like combat could get slowed down.

Disclaimer I don't play Fighter.

I dont really see the harm to have your crit generically expanded by 1 (youll have to tell the DM anyway for the majority of weapons as is). If that means a Thor's can crit on an 18, cool; it's taking the person 2 different legendaries to do that. Limit it to melee if you had to.

At the end of the day, I just want to see you brawler types happy, and it seems many of you like the direction your class is headed.

I enjoy the premise of a slide before everyone else but it will cause a new problem, what about charm of quick strike?

Now we potentially have another free slide before combat and then battle really starts?

I feel either a crit range extender or even just baking 18-20 crit directly into the weapon would give fighters 5% more crits over all and would reward good sliding.

Rogues got 17-20 crit (20%) and I think they deserve it, why can't fighters have 18-20 crit (15%)?

Justice wrote: I want to be clear I support the current considerations for fighter and has been a improvement over previous designs.

All of the current relic paths are somewhat frontloaded slightly with options that are baked into the legendary.

People need to get out of here with the nerf hammer and that this is too powerful. As is in the current environment The chances where whirlwind may occur Is what 10 -15 % across an entire adventure season? This is a flavor mechanic. Trust me I hope we get more multi mob rooms in the future but I’m not getting my hopes up.

Yes the relic/legendary seems not very thematic but guess what? Fighters slide! Unless they give a mechanic that works for our sliding this current consideration its just ok. This pathway doesn’t really move the needle damage wise considering the other melee classes. This pathway just allows the fighter to their job a bit better, helps use the tools that are out there, and be a touch more resilient.

Yes it’s a good chunk of raw stats but in the end we have already seen str go down by 1. As a fighter I can already practically punch God so strength as a +to hit really has a ceiling under current monster stats.

Monk +7dmg on both attacks
Ranger +9dmg
Barbarian +10dmg

Fighter +3dmg

....

So yes I support a expanded crit range. At least there is skill in sliding that had to occur and that’s probably as thematic as we are going to get.

Ranger is a range damage bonus only. If you do melee attacks which many rangers do you do not take adventage of the damage bonus. Ranger has to give up one of two attacks to attack at range which affects the average amount of damage significantly.

FatalDrakkon wrote: I enjoy the premise of a slide before everyone else but it will cause a new problem, what about charm of quick strike?

Now we potentially have another free slide before combat and then battle really starts?

Yes - Fighter slides

15 is rolled, anyone with quick strike slides

Then combat begins. If you win init, everyone slides.

If that is too much, the token could work as a charm of quick strike that triggers on a lower number - 10 at relic and 5 at legendary... or something

Endgame wrote:

FatalDrakkon wrote: I enjoy the premise of a slide before everyone else but it will cause a new problem, what about charm of quick strike?

Now we potentially have another free slide before combat and then battle really starts?

Yes - Fighter slides

15 is rolled, anyone with quick strike slides

Then combat begins. If you win init, everyone slides.

If that is too much, the token could work as a charm of quick strike that triggers on a lower number - 10 at relic and 5 at legendary... or something

How about just - Fighter automatically quick strikes? Simple, powerful (but not too much) and not limited use.

Lequinian wrote:

Endgame wrote:

FatalDrakkon wrote: I enjoy the premise of a slide before everyone else but it will cause a new problem, what about charm of quick strike?

Now we potentially have another free slide before combat and then battle really starts?

Yes - Fighter slides

15 is rolled, anyone with quick strike slides

Then combat begins. If you win init, everyone slides.

If that is too much, the token could work as a charm of quick strike that triggers on a lower number - 10 at relic and 5 at legendary... or something

How about just - Fighter automatically quick strikes? Simple, powerful (but not too much) and not limited use.

Always Works at legendary.

At relic, maybe just as charm of quick strike, and Legendary always?

Just spitballing for something unique to Fighter that deals damage but is more characterful than + str +damage, + crit range.

I'm looking over the most generally floated, accepted ideas. Here is where I think we are. Four main topics with options under each. Its just my take on it and I may have missed something.

1) Stats
a) 7 Str, 3 Dex 4 Con on Legendary.
b) Some reduction on Relic is acceptable - 5/3/2 or 5/3/4 have been proposed. Or
c) Some prefer no reduction on Relic.

2) Shield Bonus
a)+6 Reflex Save. Or
b) Allow 2 handed weapons to be used in one hand.


3) Whirlwind on Legendary
a) Identical damage to an additional melee target if first melee target is hit. Or
b) Replace with pre initiative attack? Automatic on Legendary, As charm of of quick strike on Relic.

4) Expanded Crit
a) All weapons Crit on 19-20 on Legendary. Or
b) Crit range on any usable weapon expanded by 1 on Legendary. Or
c) Replace with pre initiative attack. Automatic on Legendary, As charm of of quick strike on Relic.

Endgame wrote:

Lequinian wrote:

Endgame wrote:

FatalDrakkon wrote: I enjoy the premise of a slide before everyone else but it will cause a new problem, what about charm of quick strike?

Now we potentially have another free slide before combat and then battle really starts?

Yes - Fighter slides

15 is rolled, anyone with quick strike slides

Then combat begins. If you win init, everyone slides.

If that is too much, the token could work as a charm of quick strike that triggers on a lower number - 10 at relic and 5 at legendary... or something

How about just - Fighter automatically quick strikes? Simple, powerful (but not too much) and not limited use.

Always Works at legendary.

At relic, maybe just as charm of quick strike, and Legendary always?

Just spitballing for something unique to Fighter that deals damage but is more characterful than + str +damage, + crit range.

I can get behind "swift strike" but I also dont want to lose any of the hard work we have already made towards the relic and legendary.

I don't want to lose the stats, crit and whirlwind strike.

We could add it to our token as is but I feel like the token would start to get crowded.

I love the idea but how do we work things around to make it fit? I feel like if we dropped a few points of str to pay for the new ability would be what the doctor ordered but not too many points so that we fall behind the other legendary paths