TOPIC: 2021 Fighter Relic & Legendary Feedback

Lequinian wrote: I’m not a fan of whirlwind. How many rooms have 2 melee targets in a (normal) year?

Based on Mathew Hayward’s analysis, roughly half the dungeons in recent years have had at least one. A few have had more than one such room. There might well be changes in dungeon design in the future that would increase the frequency.

FatalDrakkon wrote:

Harlax wrote:

Harlax wrote: Expanded Crit would be fun. And the munchkin in me says "bring it on." But I would not be willing to give up Whirlwind or any of the stats to get it. And I'm afraid that is what it would take.

Y’all had to bring expanded crit back into the conversation. Had to tempt fate. Had to poke the bear. Now look where we are.

If the token stays where it is right now and they make no adjustments, I would still make it in a heartbeat.

I'm just arguing that expanding crit range would be more universal than a baked in flat range and would help everyone as a whole.

Other than Thor’s there are only 4 other UR or better fighter melee weapons with a baked in crit of 19-20. One was last printed in 2008, one last printed In 2009. The other two are the UR and relic hammers that lead to Thors.

Does anyone think there is a stash of +1 Celestial keen long swords just waiting to come out of the wood works?

This is not a hill I’m willing to die on. I’m not even willing to take casualties trying to defend it.

Harlax wrote:

FatalDrakkon wrote:

Harlax wrote:

Harlax wrote: Expanded Crit would be fun. And the munchkin in me says "bring it on." But I would not be willing to give up Whirlwind or any of the stats to get it. And I'm afraid that is what it would take.

Y’all had to bring expanded crit back into the conversation. Had to tempt fate. Had to poke the bear. Now look where we are.

If the token stays where it is right now and they make no adjustments, I would still make it in a heartbeat.

I'm just arguing that expanding crit range would be more universal than a baked in flat range and would help everyone as a whole.

Other than Thor’s there are only 4 other UR plus fighter melee weapons with a baked in crit of 19-20. One was last printed in 2008, one last printed In 2009. The other two are the UR and relic hammers that lead to Thors.

This is not a hill I’m willing to die on. I’m not even willing to take casualties trying to defend it.

Oh I dont want to die on this hill either, I'm just gonna put my flag up there and if it's still there in the morning then we can call that a victory.

As the relic and legendary stand now, I would make them. If Jeff made that small change that would also leave us interesting design space for future sets, I would be the happiest man alive.

But if no changes are made, I'm still very happy with where we have gotten together as a community in building a great token for my favorite class.

Wayne Rhodes wrote: So basically legendary belt + medallion of the sweetwoods + busting Reflex save = one crazy powered relic that may be the second best token in the game just behind the legendary.
I think this is way overpowered.

I agree it’s way op. I think this is probably the best relic of all that have been made, requires no thought or sacrifice to replace exhausting.
While I think it’s the best I also think this is the worst thematic wise, how many other classes would have rather just had +14 stats and potential 7 of one save over their classes

Miathan wrote:

Wayne Rhodes wrote: So basically legendary belt + medallion of the sweetwoods + busting Reflex save = one crazy powered relic that may be the second best token in the game just behind the legendary.
I think this is way overpowered.

I agree it’s way op. I think this is probably the best relic of all that have been made, requires no thought or sacrifice to replace exhausting.
While I think it’s the best I also think this is the worst thematic wise, how many other classes would have rather just had +14 stats and potential 7 of one save over their classes

Well, the fighters seem to think it’s perfectly thematic. Do you have an alternative?

Harlax wrote:

Lequinian wrote: I’m not a fan of whirlwind. How many rooms have 2 melee targets in a (normal) year?

Based on Mathew Hayward’s analysis, roughly half the dungeons in recent years have had at least one. A few have had more than one such room. There might well be changes in dungeon design in the future that would increase the frequency.

I think his analysis was on 2 targets, not necessarily 2 melee targets. Granted that there may be future dungeon design (goblin hordes, skeleton armies, Steam-Punk harpies with broken wings) that lends itself, but do any of the other legendary tokens have an ability that's usable only in sub-set of combat rooms? If it's a "minor bump" because everything else is over-powered, so be it. But I'm not sure it's worth the price bump from relic.

Harlax wrote:

Miathan wrote:

Wayne Rhodes wrote: So basically legendary belt + medallion of the sweetwoods + busting Reflex save = one crazy powered relic that may be the second best token in the game just behind the legendary.
I think this is way overpowered.

I agree it’s way op. I think this is probably the best relic of all that have been made, requires no thought or sacrifice to replace exhausting.
While I think it’s the best I also think this is the worst thematic wise, how many other classes would have rather just had +14 stats and potential 7 of one save over their classes

Well, the fighters seem to think it’s perfectly thematic. Do you have an alternative?

With 14 stats and 7 saves on the table so essentially no fighter having to give up thors or Valhalla no token proposed will ever make anyone happy now.
How is it thematic by the way? It’s stats, every class gets stats. I can equip stus and Valhalla on a wizard

Thematically fighters don't have magic spells or supernatural abilities. Just a martial devotion to honing their bodies into a deadly weapon.

Fighters are the only class that I think warrants raw stats because they slide the puck and move.

A spcial maneuver here or there will come up sometimes but they are a raw sliding class.

And a raw sliding class benefits the most from raw numbers.

FatalDrakkon wrote: Thematically fighters don't have magic spells or supernatural abilities. Just a martial devotion to honing their bodies into a deadly weapon.

Fighters are the only class that I think warrants raw stats because they slide the puck and move.

A spcial maneuver here or there will come up sometimes but they are a raw sliding class.

And a raw sliding class benefits the most from raw numbers.

Because barbarians are magically enhanced?

Lequinian wrote:

Harlax wrote:

Lequinian wrote: I’m not a fan of whirlwind. How many rooms have 2 melee targets in a (normal) year?

Based on Mathew Hayward’s analysis, roughly half the dungeons in recent years have had at least one. A few have had more than one such room. There might well be changes in dungeon design in the future that would increase the frequency.

I think his analysis was on 2 targets, not necessarily 2 melee targets. Granted that there may be future dungeon design (goblin hordes, skeleton armies, Steam-Punk harpies with broken wings) that lends itself, but do any of the other legendary tokens have an ability that's usable only in sub-set of combat rooms? If it's a "minor bump" because everything else is over-powered, so be it. But I'm not sure it's worth the price bump from relic.

So probably better to be +3 str, 3 Dex, 4 con at relic and save the 7 str for the legendary? That way there is a bigger incentive to upgrade.

Miathan wrote:

FatalDrakkon wrote: Thematically fighters don't have magic spells or supernatural abilities. Just a martial devotion to honing their bodies into a deadly weapon.

Fighters are the only class that I think warrants raw stats because they slide the puck and move.

A spcial maneuver here or there will come up sometimes but they are a raw sliding class.

And a raw sliding class benefits the most from raw numbers.

Because barbarians are magically enhanced?

Barbarians have rage, use 2 handers and arguably the best damage dealing in the game. But this is about fighters.

I dont want to argue or for things to get heated. I'm open to suggestions on how we can change things.

We've come a long way since the first proposed token and we can still go the distance.

FatalDrakkon wrote:

Miathan wrote:

FatalDrakkon wrote: Thematically fighters don't have magic spells or supernatural abilities. Just a martial devotion to honing their bodies into a deadly weapon.

Fighters are the only class that I think warrants raw stats because they slide the puck and move.

A spcial maneuver here or there will come up sometimes but they are a raw sliding class.

And a raw sliding class benefits the most from raw numbers.

Because barbarians are magically enhanced?

Barbarians have rage, use 2 handers and arguably the best damage dealing in the game. But this is about fighters.

I dont want to argue or for things to get heated. I'm open to suggestions on how we can change things.

We've come a long way since the first proposed token and we can still go the distance.

I’m open to ideas as well. “This sucks” is not an idea.