TOPIC: 2021 Fighter Relic & Legendary Feedback

Harlax wrote:

edwin wrote:

Harlax wrote:

edwin wrote: There lies in the rub.

I was thinking choose crit you get the expanded range to a single foe, choose whirlwind you get your damage not multplied to one foe if you hit-two foes if you crit-three foes if you slide a 20.

Result could be 40, 80 or 120 to one foe.
OR
40 to one foe, 40 to two foes, or 40 to three foes.

Dwarf fighter being more determine could potentially due up to 4 foes with whirlwind.

Not sure how you figure 4 targets are possible.

Whirlwind Attack: If you hit one monster in the room with a melee attack, and another monster is also in melee range, the same amount of damage will be done to the second monster automatically.

If more than two are possible, that wording needs some work.

It's cool if you want to limit it to just two and to just melee, but figure it would be more thematic to allow more and not restrict it to melee.

It says Melee range, so my assumption was that unless it was a flying monster, across a chasm or some other hosing mechanism, it was in melee range. But maybe not. More clarification needed.

But if its melee only, you can drop my concern about Io's out of my earlier analysis. Then is really all about Thors.

I do not see how you are getting anything other than "effect a single, 2nd target, also in melee range, with your melee attacks" from that.

If it chained onto all other monsters:

a. It would say "additional" instead of "second" in "the same amount of damage will be done to the second monster automatically."

b. The whole power would be written as: "If you hit one monster in the room with a melee attack, all monsters in melee range are also hit with the same amount of damage automatically".

Harlax wrote:

edwin wrote:

Harlax wrote:

edwin wrote: There lies in the rub.

I was thinking choose crit you get the expanded range to a single foe, choose whirlwind you get your damage not multplied to one foe if you hit-two foes if you crit-three foes if you slide a 20.

Result could be 40, 80 or 120 to one foe.
OR
40 to one foe, 40 to two foes, or 40 to three foes.

Dwarf fighter being more determine could potentially due up to 4 foes with whirlwind.

Not sure how you figure 4 targets are possible.

Whirlwind Attack: If you hit one monster in the room with a melee attack, and another monster is also in melee range, the same amount of damage will be done to the second monster automatically.

If more than two are possible, that wording needs some work.

It's cool if you want to limit it to just two and to just melee, but figure it would be more thematic to allow more and not restrict it to melee.

It says Melee range, so my assumption was that unless it was a flying monster, across a chasm or some other hosing mechanism, it was in melee range. But maybe not. More clarification needed.

But if its melee only, you can drop my concern about Io's out of my earlier analysis. Then is really all about Thors.

Currently that what's it indicates. You can live with it or work on trying to change it. If I played a fighter I would work on trying to get it changed.

edwin wrote:

Harlax wrote:

edwin wrote:

Harlax wrote:

edwin wrote: There lies in the rub.

I was thinking choose crit you get the expanded range to a single foe, choose whirlwind you get your damage not multplied to one foe if you hit-two foes if you crit-three foes if you slide a 20.

Result could be 40, 80 or 120 to one foe.
OR
40 to one foe, 40 to two foes, or 40 to three foes.

Dwarf fighter being more determine could potentially due up to 4 foes with whirlwind.

Not sure how you figure 4 targets are possible.

Whirlwind Attack: If you hit one monster in the room with a melee attack, and another monster is also in melee range, the same amount of damage will be done to the second monster automatically.

If more than two are possible, that wording needs some work.

It's cool if you want to limit it to just two and to just melee, but figure it would be more thematic to allow more and not restrict it to melee.

It says Melee range, so my assumption was that unless it was a flying monster, across a chasm or some other hosing mechanism, it was in melee range. But maybe not. More clarification needed.

But if its melee only, you can drop my concern about Io's out of my earlier analysis. Then is really all about Thors.

Currently that what's it indicates. You can live with it or work on trying to change it. If I played a fighter I would work on trying to get it changed.

A ranged whirlwind attack would be ridiculous unless we started using exploding shells instead of arrows to hit multiple targets.

I guess Thor's hammer could fly around and hit multiple targets before returning but that would be the same as saying an arrow would pierce and hit multiple targets.

In a world of magic, all things are possible but I feel that a warrior in a controlled spin like a whirling dervish was the intention and not magic bullets that hit multiple targets.

Fighters can leave the ranged combat to the specialists like wizards and rangers while we focus on crushing our enemies in melee.

FatalDrakkon wrote:

edwin wrote:

Harlax wrote:

edwin wrote:

Harlax wrote:

edwin wrote: There lies in the rub.

I was thinking choose crit you get the expanded range to a single foe, choose whirlwind you get your damage not multplied to one foe if you hit-two foes if you crit-three foes if you slide a 20.

Result could be 40, 80 or 120 to one foe.
OR
40 to one foe, 40 to two foes, or 40 to three foes.

Dwarf fighter being more determine could potentially due up to 4 foes with whirlwind.

Not sure how you figure 4 targets are possible.

Whirlwind Attack: If you hit one monster in the room with a melee attack, and another monster is also in melee range, the same amount of damage will be done to the second monster automatically.

If more than two are possible, that wording needs some work.

It's cool if you want to limit it to just two and to just melee, but figure it would be more thematic to allow more and not restrict it to melee.

It says Melee range, so my assumption was that unless it was a flying monster, across a chasm or some other hosing mechanism, it was in melee range. But maybe not. More clarification needed.

But if its melee only, you can drop my concern about Io's out of my earlier analysis. Then is really all about Thors.

Currently that what's it indicates. You can live with it or work on trying to change it. If I played a fighter I would work on trying to get it changed.

A ranged whirlwind attack would be ridiculous unless we started using exploding shells instead of arrows to hit multiple targets.

I guess Thor's hammer could fly around and hit multiple targets before returning but that would be the same as saying an arrow would pierce and hit multiple targets.

In a world of magic, all things are possible but I feel that a warrior in a controlled spin like a whirling dervish was the intention and not magic bullets that hit multiple targets.

Fighters can leave the ranged combat to the specialists like wizards and rangers while we focus on crushing our enemies in melee.

Figure I am back where it started. Expanded crit range combined with two foes for whirlwind attack.

If you saw my stats you would see that a ranged whirlwind would not be a good strategy.

And stats are Stu plus Valhalla plus one strength. The net STR gain over Stu is NOT 7, it’s 4.

Harlax wrote: If you saw my stats you would see that a ranged whirlwind would not be a good strategy.

And stats are Stu plus Valhalla plus one strength. The net STR gain over Stu is NOT 7, it’s 4.

So we should only value Surtr’s as +3? I’m not really sure I buy that line of thought.

It’s a legendary belt + a medallion of Valhalla + a supreme ring of evasion of ref save on a relic.

It’s actually a pretty good point . Might need some progression on stats from relic to legendary.

Endgame wrote:

Harlax wrote: If you saw my stats you would see that a ranged whirlwind would not be a good strategy.

And stats are Stu plus Valhalla plus one strength. The net STR gain over Stu is NOT 7, it’s 4.

So we should only value Surtr’s as +3? I’m not really sure I buy that line of thought.

It’s a legendary belt + a medallion of Valhalla + a supreme ring of evasion of ref save on a relic.

It’s actually a pretty good point . Might need some progression on stats from relic to legendary.

How is Surtr’s in the picture at all. We are combining Stu (3STR) and Valhalla (3 STR) and replacing with 7 STR.

Earlier I proposed making the relic 5 STR and the Legendary 7. That wouldn’t be terrible.

Harlax wrote: Expanded Crit would be fun. And the munchkin in me says "bring it on." But I would not be willing to give up Whirlwind or any of the stats to get it. And I'm afraid that is what it would take.

Y’all had to bring expanded crit back into the conversation. Had to tempt fate. Had to poke the bear. Now look where we are.

You might as well stand in front of a mirror and say Incognito three times.

I think the relic is awesome and I also really like the legendary and I only think it needs expanded crit range instead of a flat baked in crit range.

Whirlwind attack is great as written and doesn't need any changes. It would be the players responsibility to tell the DM about their crit range and whirlwind attack unless they add a space to the party card.

I think players having a relic/legendary is important information a DM should be able to get from a quick glance at the party card. Especially if there are keywords involved.

But it also doesn't hurt to offer a helpful reminder that you can do X because you have Y.

Harlax wrote:

Harlax wrote: Expanded Crit would be fun. And the munchkin in me says "bring it on." But I would not be willing to give up Whirlwind or any of the stats to get it. And I'm afraid that is what it would take.

Y’all had to bring expanded crit back into the conversation. Had to tempt fate. Had to poke the bear. Now look where we are.

If the token stays where it is right now and they make no adjustments, I would still make it in a heartbeat.

I'm just arguing that expanding crit range would be more universal than a baked in flat range and would help everyone as a whole.

I’m not a fan of whirlwind. How many rooms have 2 melee targets in a (normal) year?

Lequinian wrote: I’m not a fan of whirlwind. How many rooms have 2 melee targets in a (normal) year?

I'm not married to the idea but I think it would be pretty cool sometimes to literally be a melee wizard and smash multiple targets at the same time. It would only come up sometimes, but when it did come up you would be a damage god.