TOPIC: Transmute Token Ideas

Singsalot wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Singsalot wrote: What about something like what some video games have, where you cobble weapons together?

Something like Common Weapon X + Common Weapon Y + Gear/GP/Nonsense = UC/Rare weapon Z?

So like 10ft pole + Sword + rope = Nikit's Stabby Long Spear
Dwarven Axe + Dwarven Crossbow + Iron ingot = Old Reliable

etc.

If necessary you could make it require a Dwarven Steel or Minotaur Hide, etc. but something very accessible and relatively cheap, i.e. Common ingredients only

You could make net-guns, flame arrows, weird clockwork stuff, etc

Iconically due to treasure generators and condesed lacks uncommon and rares tend to be the most available.

I’d target a combination transmute like this at those rarities.

I'm thinking something that could be made with a few 10-packs and luck, or a couple bucks buying on the open market.

Yup - I get that - I’m just saying it’s hard to find commons on the secondary market. I don’t know how many people buy regular token 10 packs - you’d need to buy around 4 before you’d expect to have one each of two different commons.

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Singsalot wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Singsalot wrote: What about something like what some video games have, where you cobble weapons together?

Something like Common Weapon X + Common Weapon Y + Gear/GP/Nonsense = UC/Rare weapon Z?

So like 10ft pole + Sword + rope = Nikit's Stabby Long Spear
Dwarven Axe + Dwarven Crossbow + Iron ingot = Old Reliable

etc.

If necessary you could make it require a Dwarven Steel or Minotaur Hide, etc. but something very accessible and relatively cheap, i.e. Common ingredients only

You could make net-guns, flame arrows, weird clockwork stuff, etc

Iconically due to treasure generators and condesed lacks uncommon and rares tend to be the most available.

I’d target a combination transmute like this at those rarities.

I'm thinking something that could be made with a few 10-packs and luck, or a couple bucks buying on the open market.

Yup - I get that - I’m just saying it’s hard to find commons on the secondary market. I don’t know how many people buy regular token 10 packs - you’d need to buy around 4 before you’d expect to have one each of two different commons.

Well, that's in a world where no Common token is used for pretty much anything, and most get mulched.

I've not had much trouble getting a Common token I want between Trent and Kirk, and if there are a few "good" ones to be had, with all the runs veterans go on, and the bricks volunteers get, it shouldn't be crazy hard, even if the 8k crowd still goes with condensed stuff.

I mean, if using UC works better, then it works better, I just figure there are more commons out there than UC on balance, especially for new players.

Fiddy wrote: My preferred version of the Grill of Cavadar would be:
Imbues psychic
Immune to Psychic Blast
Allow use of one additional Psychic Power
+1 Will save per Charm equipped
+7 HP

Two recipes. One recipe which takes the 7 teeth, 1 of the UR imbuers, and minimal Trade goods. The other which takes the 7 teeth, 1 Rare imbuer, and a larger amount of trade goods.

Sounds good! Add a restriction "may not equip with Tooth of Cavadar tokens" to avoid stacking issues. Possibly also "may not equip with tokens that Imbue Psychic Powers".

Yeah I didn't order Semi-Lich Skull yet because Jeff said it wouldn't stack. But this solution solves both issues: if you have all the teeth and want the HP you still get it by transmuting, and if you bought the Skull but it's going to be useless, you can feed it into the recipe.

Maybe an even cheaper recipe that takes 2x UR Imbuers would be nice too? Mostly for people who have both Amethyst Ovoid and Skull... if both are obsoleted by the transmute.

UR: Diadem of Discord - for 1 round, all damage you deal is the type of your choice & you are immune to that type. 1/room

Relic: Crown of Chaos - swap your melee and ranged stats.

Legendary: Loki's Helm - during coaching roll a D6:
1. +1 hp
2. +2 AC
3. +3 to-hit melee & ranged
4. +4 saves
5. +5 damage melee, missile, & spells
6. Gain all special abilities of one of the remaining classes.

Jeff321 wrote:

Fiddy wrote: My preferred version of the Grill of Cavadar would be:
Imbues psychic
Immune to Psychic Blast
Allow use of one additional Psychic Power
+1 Will save per Charm equipped
+7 HP

Two recipes. One recipe which takes the 7 teeth, 1 of the UR imbuers, and minimal Trade goods. The other which takes the 7 teeth, 1 Rare imbuer, and a larger amount of trade goods.

Sounds good! Add a restriction "may not equip with Tooth of Cavadar tokens" to avoid stacking issues. Possibly also "may not equip with tokens that Imbue Psychic Powers".

Yeah I didn't order Semi-Lich Skull yet because Jeff said it wouldn't stack. But this solution solves both issues: if you have all the teeth and want the HP you still get it by transmuting, and if you bought the Skull but it's going to be useless, you can feed it into the recipe.

Maybe an even cheaper recipe that takes 2x UR Imbuers would be nice too? Mostly for people who have both Amethyst Ovoid and Skull... if both are obsoleted by the transmute.

Charming Crown and charming set would also be obsoleted if no other psychic enables were a restriction.

I would prefer to not have the transmute at all if that was a restriction.

Jeff321 wrote:

Fiddy wrote: My preferred version of the Grill of Cavadar would be:
Imbues psychic
Immune to Psychic Blast
Allow use of one additional Psychic Power
+1 Will save per Charm equipped
+7 HP

Two recipes. One recipe which takes the 7 teeth, 1 of the UR imbuers, and minimal Trade goods. The other which takes the 7 teeth, 1 Rare imbuer, and a larger amount of trade goods.

Sounds good! Add a restriction "may not equip with Tooth of Cavadar tokens" to avoid stacking issues. Possibly also "may not equip with tokens that Imbue Psychic Powers".

Yeah I didn't order Semi-Lich Skull yet because Jeff said it wouldn't stack. But this solution solves both issues: if you have all the teeth and want the HP you still get it by transmuting, and if you bought the Skull but it's going to be useless, you can feed it into the recipe.

Maybe an even cheaper recipe that takes 2x UR Imbuers would be nice too? Mostly for people who have both Amethyst Ovoid and Skull... if both are obsoleted by the transmute.

There are going to be a ton of extra teeth. Making it so mask bearers (the people most likely to have extra teeth) can’t get benefits from extra teeth where others can seems like a bad idea to me.

Breaking with all precedent and requiring an eldritch transmute to require lots of trade goods and/or additional URs also seems like a bad idea to me.

Breaking Dark Disciples shirt by disallowing it to be used in conjunction with the completed item also seems like a bad idea to me.

Having the transmute follow the typical recipe (one of each trade good, possible a Golden Fleece) seems like a good idea to me. It has the advantage of not introducing a bunch of problems that are then “solved” by incorporating URs into alternate recipes, which in turn introduces problems which are “solved” by introducing new rules that make those tokens useless to cavadar mask holders.

TL:DR; things which increase the desirability of late model teeth 5+ are good - and allowing Semi Lich skill to work alongside the mask does that, as does having lots of Psychic enabling URs available on the secondary market.


Finally, tacking on +7 will saves to a presumably Slotless token that already has a 1/game auto succeed any will save strikes me as very silly. That’s not a minor “little bit extra” bonus - it’s a ~relic level effect all on its own.

Matthew Hayward wrote: Breaking with all precedent and requiring an eldritch transmute to require lots of trade goods and/or additional URs also seems like a bad idea to me.

Breaking with all precedent? This isn't an Eldritch Relic, this is a Grand Eldritch. There has been exactly one other transmute like this. 7 years previous. And unlike that one, the components of this one have required along the way that you had an additional token in order to use the pieces. The prior one's components could be used all by themselves.

So I suspect that most people that have a full set of teeth, have at least one (if not more) of the imbuers.

Matt, have you just been collecting buckets of teeth and no imbuers, not using the individual teeth, just waiting on the transmute?

I don't see a way to require an UR enabler and not mess something else up unless you roll all the enabler abilities into it. This includes Charming Crown, Charming set, Shirt, IS, Skull, etc.

Also not liking a grill unless it is the type you bbq on.

Fiddy wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote: Breaking with all precedent and requiring an eldritch transmute to require lots of trade goods and/or additional URs also seems like a bad idea to me.

Breaking with all precedent? This isn't an Eldritch Relic, this is a Grand Eldritch. There has been exactly one other transmute like this. 7 years previous. And unlike that one, the components of this one have required along the way that you had an additional token in order to use the pieces. The prior one's components could be used all by themselves.

There is one direct precedent. It had one of each trade good.

There are three related precedents. Each has one of each trade good and maybe a GF. If you declare these to not be precedent, then you're left only with the RoSP.

So yes, a proposal to include numerous other trade goods and/or URs breaks all existing precedent - whether you consider that precedent to include all Eldritch tokens, or only RoSP. I'm not sure why that seems to be something people are struggling to understand or agree with - it's very straightforward.

It doesn't follow that:
1. because the Teeth had a mechanic that required other token enablers
2. therefore the transmuted item should have a different form of transmute recipe than every other Eldrtich/Grand Eldritch token.

That's a non sequitur.

Can you think of a single example of any transmute where the thing being transmuted required token enablers, and the recipe also required those same enablers? I can only think of counterexamples (Io's, Thor's and their relics don't require DEX boosters in their recipes).

Jeff321 wrote:
Yeah I didn't order Semi-Lich Skull yet because Jeff said it wouldn't stack.

Let's be careful.

Jeff said the transmuted X of Cavadar wouldn't count as equipping 7 unique teeth for the purpose of the Semi-Lich skull.

Jeff didn't say anything about whether you could use and equip a Semi-Lich skull and associated teeth while also using and equipping X of Cavadar.

The latter statement is what I would understand "stacking" to mean.

I agree it could be disallowed, or it could work. I'm just trying to reign in any perception that it was already stated not to work.

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Fiddy wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote: Breaking with all precedent and requiring an eldritch transmute to require lots of trade goods and/or additional URs also seems like a bad idea to me.

Breaking with all precedent? This isn't an Eldritch Relic, this is a Grand Eldritch. There has been exactly one other transmute like this. 7 years previous. And unlike that one, the components of this one have required along the way that you had an additional token in order to use the pieces. The prior one's components could be used all by themselves.

There is one direct precedent. It had one of each trade good.

There are three related precedents. Each has one of each trade good and maybe a GF. If you declare these to not be precedent, then you're left only with the RoSP.

So yes, a proposal to include numerous other trade goods and/or URs breaks all existing precedent - whether you consider that precedent to include all Eldritch tokens, or only RoSP. I'm not sure why that seems to be something people are struggling to understand or agree with - it's very straightforward.

It doesn't follow that:
1. because the Teeth had a mechanic that required other token enablers
2. therefore the transmuted item should have a different form of transmute recipe than every other Eldrtich/Grand Eldritch token.

That's a non sequitur.

Can you think of a single example of any transmute where the thing being transmuted required token enablers, and the recipe also required those same enablers? I can only think of counterexamples (Io's, Thor's and their relics don't require DEX boosters in their recipes).

Why do you want to go against all precedent by adding a power not part of the components into the Eldritch transmute without including the component that gives that ability?

In other words, I simply see the imbuer as part of the whole. Since we've needed an imbuer before the transmute, I believe most people aiming to do the transmute probably have one (or more).

Ok, let's take a step back. I see that you mentioned "numerous other trade goods". You apparently took a leap on what I meant when I said the recipe with the UR enabler would be cheaper. That may be on me for not giving a specific example. What if the recipes were simply:

Recipe 1: 7 teeth, one rare enabler (assuming one is printed in 2021) plus one of each trade good, including GF.

Recipe 2: 7 teeth, plus a UR enabler. Nothing else.

That gives you a recipe pretty close to what you're expecting, and still matches my criteria of the UR recipe using fewer trade goods.

Eldritch Tooth Token:

I think the recipe should be the same as the Rod of Seven Parts Recipe: One of each Trade Item Token (not including Golden Fleece) and the seven UR Teeth tokens. I think it should give Psychic ability and probably something in exchange for the special event. I don't think it should require any of the UR or Rare tokens that give psychic ability. Those can still be used by people with some Teeth URs but not enough for the entire Eldritch transmute.