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TOPIC: New Slot Thought

New Slot Thought 2 months 3 days ago #49

The described voice option seems like it would be reasonable as a consumable rather than a slot. Maybe coaching room 1/adventure type consumable. Maybe even only available from treasure box (at least as a first pass).

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New Slot Thought 2 months 3 days ago #50

If there ever were a limit on slotless tokens (for example no more than 15), I like the idea of a Bag of Holding, which would allow additional slotless tokens. There could be different rarities of Bags of Holding with the higher rarities holding more additional slotless tokens, and a limit of one Bag of Holding (a Bag of Holding slot of one). :)

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New Slot Thought 2 months 3 days ago #51

Mike Steele wrote: If there ever were a limit on slotless tokens (for example no more than 15), I like the idea of a Bag of Holding, which would allow additional slotless tokens. There could be different rarities of Bags of Holding with the higher rarities holding more additional slotless tokens, and a limit of one Bag of Holding (a Bag of Holding slot of one). :)


Could this lead to a total party kill in the coaching room when someone tries to stag bags of holding inside bags of holding? ;)

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Last edit: by Marc D.

New Slot Thought 2 months 3 days ago #52

Mike Steele wrote: If there ever were a limit on slotless tokens (for example no more than 15), I like the idea of a Bag of Holding, which would allow additional slotless tokens. There could be different rarities of Bags of Holding with the higher rarities holding more additional slotless tokens, and a limit of one Bag of Holding (a Bag of Holding slot of one). :)


One could scale them to rarity. Example: common holding 5, uncommon holding 10, rare holding 15, and some transmuted options to allow more.

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New Slot Thought 2 months 3 days ago #53

I would think the bag of holding would be a way to avoid the slot less gear cap, but with usage cost.

Ex: You have 5 gear slots. Bag of Holding uses 5 slots, and can contain unlimited items. However, retrieving an item from the bag of holding uses a free action.

Another thought I have on new slots in general - we are already close to jumping the shark on slots (Bead slot? Really?). It’s really not a problem for someone in deep, but the more slots, the worse it looks from the outside (more slots = more money grab). There are already enough slots that design space shouldn’t be an issue for decades, as long as token creep is kept in check.

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New Slot Thought 2 months 3 days ago #54

edwin wrote:

Mike Steele wrote: If there ever were a limit on slotless tokens (for example no more than 15), I like the idea of a Bag of Holding, which would allow additional slotless tokens. There could be different rarities of Bags of Holding with the higher rarities holding more additional slotless tokens, and a limit of one Bag of Holding (a Bag of Holding slot of one). :)


One could scale them to rarity. Example: common holding 5, uncommon holding 10, rare holding 15, and some transmuted options to allow more.


Exactly what I was thinking, the higher the rarity the greater the capacity. :)

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New Slot Thought 2 months 3 days ago #55

My $0.02:

As long as most slotless tokens have special case effects and not numeric stat impacts or other things that show up on party card, I don't see a reason to limit them. The fact that you have to keep track of all the special effects and actually remember to use them is a limiting factor in itself.

I'm also not a huge fan of adding more slots (whether we're talking about moving slotless to slotted or coming up with entirely new slots). More slots pretty much has to mean less love for existing slots (assuming there isn't a change to number of tokens per year). We already have enough slots that we have some that miss out on some love (it would be nice to get some Ioun Stone transmutes for example). More slots also means more potential complexity dimensions in balance discussions when reviewing planned tokens.

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New Slot Thought 2 months 3 days ago #56

Endgame wrote: I would think the bag of holding would be a way to avoid the slot less gear cap, but with usage cost.

Ex: You have 5 gear slots. Bag of Holding uses 5 slots, and can contain unlimited items. However, retrieving an item from the bag of holding uses a free action.

Another thought I have on new slots in general - we are already close to jumping the shark on slots (Bead slot? Really?). It’s really not a problem for someone in deep, but the more slots, the worse it looks from the outside (more slots = more money grab). There are already enough slots that design space shouldn’t be an issue for decades, as long as token creep is kept in check.


I think the challenge that True Dungeon has is that a lot of the bigger token buyers already have "best in class" tokens in pretty much all slots. In order to have tokens from a new set appeal to those buyers, the tokens need to either be more desirable than the existing "best in slot" tokens, or exist in a new slot where there aren't yet any "best in slot" tokens.

Both options have downsides also, I think. If people have their "best in slot" tokens obsoleted too often, it can be pretty discouraging. And, like you said, if there are too many possible slots it can be kind of overwhelming to newer players - not to mention back-breaking for those of us carrying all the tokens for the whole group.

I think that's why there is the recent emphasis on slot expanders. It's kind of like creating a new slot - if someone has 7 "best in slot" charms, but now can have 9 charms, that's two new slots for them to fill. That was a main emphasis behind the Charm of Avarice (other than giving people a chance for a Horn of Plenty equivalent), it freed up several slots for people to then start buying "best in class" tokens for.

Come to think of it - maybe the two concepts can be combined. There could be a brand new slot, but it starts out at "zero" token slots, and you can only outfit anything in that slot by buying slot expander tokens (even if those slot expander tokens were slotless themselves). Like, maybe, Tattoos were a new slot, but you couldn't equip a Tattoo token unless you get a Tattoo Ink token. Just thinking out loud...

I guess Runestone Fitting Base is already an example of this - it's a slotless token that essentially creates a slot (an additional runestone). Maybe more URs like that could be created. Like, a slotless double-hoop earring that let you equip an additional Earring (and maybe you could equip up to two slotless double-hoop earrings, one per ear).

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New Slot Thought 2 months 3 days ago #57

Mike Steele wrote:

Endgame wrote: I would think the bag of holding would be a way to avoid the slot less gear cap, but with usage cost.

Ex: You have 5 gear slots. Bag of Holding uses 5 slots, and can contain unlimited items. However, retrieving an item from the bag of holding uses a free action.

Another thought I have on new slots in general - we are already close to jumping the shark on slots (Bead slot? Really?). It’s really not a problem for someone in deep, but the more slots, the worse it looks from the outside (more slots = more money grab). There are already enough slots that design space shouldn’t be an issue for decades, as long as token creep is kept in check.


I think the challenge that True Dungeon has is that a lot of the bigger token buyers already have "best in class" tokens in pretty much all slots. In order to have tokens from a new set appeal to those buyers, the tokens need to either be more desirable than the existing "best in slot" tokens, or exist in a new slot where there aren't yet any "best in slot" tokens.

Both options have downsides also, I think. If people have their "best in slot" tokens obsoleted too often, it can be pretty discouraging. And, like you said, if there are too many possible slots it can be kind of overwhelming to newer players - not to mention back-breaking for those of us carrying all the tokens for the whole group.

I think that's why there is the recent emphasis on slot expanders. It's kind of like creating a new slot - if someone has 7 "best in slot" charms, but now can have 9 charms, that's two new slots for them to fill. That was a main emphasis behind the Charm of Avarice (other than giving people a chance for a Horn of Plenty equivalent), it freed up several slots for people to then start buying "best in class" tokens for.

Come to think of it - maybe the two concepts can be combined. There could be a brand new slot, but it starts out at "zero" token slots, and you can only outfit anything in that slot by buying slot expander tokens (even if those slot expander tokens were slotless themselves). Like, maybe, Tattoos were a new slot, but you couldn't equip a Tattoo token unless you get a Tattoo Ink token. Just thinking out loud...

I guess Runestone Fitting Base is already an example of this - it's a slotless token that essentially creates a slot (an additional runestone). Maybe more URs like that could be created. Like, a slotless double-hoop earring that let you equip an additional Earring (and maybe you could equip up to two slotless double-hoop earrings, one per ear).


I personally like the Runestone slot construct and using the notion of expanding a “virtual slot” as a result of some token could extend the breadth of today’s existing slots and create unique virtual slot capabilities. So for example only...the voice slot is only available if you have the right earcuff to expand into voice options. This also makes greaves more interesting for options as a certain Greave opens up pockets for specialized “trinkets” that require the pocket...
Jamie
AureliusBP


Ranger
tdcharactercreator.com/#/character/edit/b4b81c8d-c52e-4ffa-b291-a2eba22a6a8c

Am on Discord as AureliusBP if you want realtime chat.

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New Slot Thought 2 months 3 days ago #58

I think It’s actually ok to get to a point where the few “has BIS everywhere” buyers don’t have much to buy out of the standard set. It looks like there will always be multi year UR transmutes, and we don’t have legendary tokens in every slot yet (or even relics) so those players will have stuff to still get. This is triple true if keeping the big buyer means driving away dozens of new players. Eventually the Current BIS big spenders will age out / quit / Whatever, so it’s definitely best to keep the amount of new blood coming in higher than old blood going out.

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New Slot Thought 2 months 3 days ago #59

Fiddy wrote: My $0.02:

As long as most slotless tokens have special case effects and not numeric stat impacts or other things that show up on party card, I don't see a reason to limit them. The fact that you have to keep track of all the special effects and actually remember to use them is a limiting factor in itself.

I'm also not a huge fan of adding more slots (whether we're talking about moving slotless to slotted or coming up with entirely new slots). More slots pretty much has to mean less love for existing slots (assuming there isn't a change to number of tokens per year). We already have enough slots that we have some that miss out on some love (it would be nice to get some Ioun Stone transmutes for example). More slots also means more potential complexity dimensions in balance discussions when reviewing planned tokens.


I am also ok with no limit on slotless. The current app limits you to 30 which includes FOP and Bard instruments. So for the VTD runs my bard build runs about 10 slots short.

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New Slot Thought 2 months 3 days ago #60

I think the number of slots showing on the token mats makes it harder for new players to feel included if others cover everything where as their 10 pack may cover around 5 or 6 total and trying to figure out where each token is placed.

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