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TOPIC: Attribute Design

Attribute Design 4 years 2 weeks ago #37

I see several proposals for skill check bonus. So, Int might add +1 or +2 to damage. Wis might add +1 or +2 to healing.

Focus tokens are already doing that job. Do we really want to stack more healing for example? My Son's Druid build is already +21 to heals. An additional+1 is not going to excite him that much.

The same is likely true for a Wizard with lots of focus and Mad Evoker's Charm. +1 or +2 is not going to get that Wizard very excited. If that Wizard doesnt care about the additional 3 points of damage from a skill check on magic missile, why would that Wizard be exited about an additional 4 points of damage from a skill check?

OK, that's at an extreme edge of builds (not the most extreme, but up there). +1 or +2 might be more meaningful at the new player level. But is it worth the additional calculations that would have to be made in coaches or by DMs?
D&D teaches all the important lessons in life - the low blow, the cheap shot, the back stab, the double cross. - Jerry Marsischky

Let them trap us. We have our swords. - Elric of Melnibone.

You try to get them to play the game, but all they want to do is play the rules. - Ardak Kumerian

I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend - Faramir

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Last edit: by Harlax.

Attribute Design 4 years 2 weeks ago #38

Harlax wrote: I see several proposals for skill check bonus. So, Int might add +1 or +2 to damage. Wis might add +1 or +2 to healing.

Focus tokens are already doing that job. Do we really want to stack more healing for example? My Son's Druid build is already +21 to heals. An additional+1 is not going to excite him that much.

The same is likely true for a Wizard with lots of focus and Mad Evoker's Charm. +1 or +2 is not going to get that Wizard very excited. If that Wizard doesnt care about the additional 3 points of damage from a skill check on magic missile, why would that Wizard be exited about an additional 4 points of damage from a skill check?

OK, that's at an extreme edge of builds (not the most extreme, but up there). +1 or +2 might be more meaningful at the new player level. But is it worth the additional calculations that would have to be made in coaches or by DMs?

As I said in the op, you would need to have the effect be doubled over focus. Let’s say it’s +1 to skill check at each round attribute. So you have:

Staff of Focus - + 1 to spell damage
Vs
Staff of intellect - +4 Int (+2 to skill check damage).

Lenses of focus: +1 to spell damage, +1 Healing
Vs
Divine Spectacles: +4 wis (+2 to skill check healing)
Vs
Envoker’s Goggles: +4 Int (+2 to check check damage)

Greater Ring of Focus
Vs
Greater ring of intellect: +12 Int

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Attribute Design 4 years 2 weeks ago #39

Harlax wrote: I see several proposals for skill check bonus. So, Int might add +1 or +2 to damage. Wis might add +1 or +2 to healing.

Focus tokens are already doing that job. Do we really want to stack more healing for example? My Son's Druid build is already +21 to heals. An additional+1 is not going to excite him that much.

The same is likely true for a Wizard with lots of focus and Mad Evoker's Charm. +1 or +2 is not going to get that Wizard very excited. If that Wizard doesnt care about the additional 3 points of damage from a skill check on magic missile, why would that Wizard be exited about an additional 4 points of damage from a skill check?

OK, that's at an extreme edge of builds (not the most extreme, but up there). +1 or +2 might be more meaningful at the new player level. But is it worth the additional calculations that would have to be made in coaches or by DMs?


As one who plays Wizard nearly 100% of the time I would really like INT to do something, Anything really. My preference would have been increasing Psionic(psychic) power but that mechanic is now being handled by tokens available to each class.
My second would be +++ to Spell Damage (Not Spell Check Damage) I currently avoid the Spell Check in order to avoid distracting the DM for a few points of damage. Increasing the check damage would cause me to seriously reconsider that decision slowing down combat in general.
I would consider an extra wand or scroll usage a good alternative creating an additional build alternative but again I think could slow down combat.

I can’t really think of anything else that works thematically and would excite me.

Additional but probably wasaaayyyyy less likely would be additional psychic usage or psychic blast (free action, damage calculated just like any other stat bonus) would require a spot on the party card.
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Last edit: by Bob Chasan.

Attribute Design 4 years 2 weeks ago #40

Endgame wrote:

Harlax wrote: I see several proposals for skill check bonus. So, Int might add +1 or +2 to damage. Wis might add +1 or +2 to healing.

Focus tokens are already doing that job. Do we really want to stack more healing for example? My Son's Druid build is already +21 to heals. An additional+1 is not going to excite him that much.

The same is likely true for a Wizard with lots of focus and Mad Evoker's Charm. +1 or +2 is not going to get that Wizard very excited. If that Wizard doesnt care about the additional 3 points of damage from a skill check on magic missile, why would that Wizard be exited about an additional 4 points of damage from a skill check?

OK, that's at an extreme edge of builds (not the most extreme, but up there). +1 or +2 might be more meaningful at the new player level. But is it worth the additional calculations that would have to be made in coaches or by DMs?

As I said in the op, you would need to have the effect be doubled over focus. Let’s say it’s +1 to skill check at each round attribute. So you have:

Staff of Focus - + 1 to spell damage
Vs
Staff of intellect - +4 Int (+2 to skill check damage).

Lenses of focus: +1 to spell damage, +1 Healing
Vs
Divine Spectacles: +4 wis (+2 to skill check healing)
Vs
Envoker’s Goggles: +4 Int (+2 to check check damage)

Greater Ring of Focus
Vs
Greater ring of intellect: +12 Int


Things that already exist:
Hat of Intellect (rare) +4 to INT
Starhide Robe (relic) +3 to INT
Sunhide Robe +5 to INT

Charm of Enlightenment (rare) +8 to WIS

Base INT score
Wizard 19
Elf Wizard 17
If the bonus is for anything over 10, you have +4 damage off the bat for Wizard and with existing tokens up to +9 damage. Before adding any new tokens. It doesn’t have to be based on increase above 10 of course.

Base WIS:
Druid 19
Cleric 17
With the one existing Rare token you can take that to 27 for Druid. Or +8 if the bonus is for anything above 10.
(Once again, Charm of Enlightenment is OP). Again, it doesn’t have to start at above 10.

Maybe the bonus would be for above 18? That would dial things down a bit. And only on successful skill check. Figurine of Power Raven becomes pretty awesome under that system. As well as tokens that allow retrying a skill check. Time is still a consideration of course.
D&D teaches all the important lessons in life - the low blow, the cheap shot, the back stab, the double cross. - Jerry Marsischky

Let them trap us. We have our swords. - Elric of Melnibone.

You try to get them to play the game, but all they want to do is play the rules. - Ardak Kumerian

I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend - Faramir

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Attribute Design 4 years 2 weeks ago #41

Harlax wrote:

Endgame wrote:

Harlax wrote: I see several proposals for skill check bonus. So, Int might add +1 or +2 to damage. Wis might add +1 or +2 to healing.

Focus tokens are already doing that job. Do we really want to stack more healing for example? My Son's Druid build is already +21 to heals. An additional+1 is not going to excite him that much.

The same is likely true for a Wizard with lots of focus and Mad Evoker's Charm. +1 or +2 is not going to get that Wizard very excited. If that Wizard doesnt care about the additional 3 points of damage from a skill check on magic missile, why would that Wizard be exited about an additional 4 points of damage from a skill check?

OK, that's at an extreme edge of builds (not the most extreme, but up there). +1 or +2 might be more meaningful at the new player level. But is it worth the additional calculations that would have to be made in coaches or by DMs?

As I said in the op, you would need to have the effect be doubled over focus. Let’s say it’s +1 to skill check at each round attribute. So you have:

Staff of Focus - + 1 to spell damage
Vs
Staff of intellect - +4 Int (+2 to skill check damage).

Lenses of focus: +1 to spell damage, +1 Healing
Vs
Divine Spectacles: +4 wis (+2 to skill check healing)
Vs
Envoker’s Goggles: +4 Int (+2 to check check damage)

Greater Ring of Focus
Vs
Greater ring of intellect: +12 Int


Things that already exist:
Hat of Intellect (rare) +4 to INT
Starhide Robe (relic) +3 to INT
Sunhide Robe +5 to INT

Charm of Enlightenment (rare) +8 to WIS

Base INT score
Wizard 19
Elf Wizard 17
If the bonus is for anything over 10, you have +4 damage off the bat for Wizard and with existing tokens up to +9 damage. Before adding any new tokens. It doesn’t have to be based on increase above 10 of course.

Base WIS:
Druid 19
Cleric 17
With the one existing Rare token you can take that to 27 for Druid. Or +8 if the bonus is for anything above 10.
(Once again, Charm of Enlightenment is OP). Again, it doesn’t have to start at above 10.

Maybe the bonus would be for above 18? That would dial things down a bit. And only on successful skill check. Figurine of Power Raven becomes pretty awesome under that system. As well as tokens that allow retrying a skill check. Time is still a consideration of course.

The current skill check is already a +3, so you would break even with any character that has a 17. This is also why you decide on this before character redesign, so you can adjust the attributes if necessary. Some benefits of Going with a skill check build path:

1) you can design one wizard to have more skill check spells than the other, thus setting up for, potentially, a skill check wizard and a slide wizard (with thought in spell lists, you could still leave both options for focus builds and cross spec builds as well)

2) if the Druid wants to pump skill checks, he has to choose, healing or damage?

If necessary, you could reprint the charm of Enlightenment at +4 if necessary for errata sake.

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Attribute Design 4 years 2 weeks ago #42

I’d like to see INT and WIS become meaningful. I’d like that to be a simple thing that does not add to Coaching complexity.
D&D teaches all the important lessons in life - the low blow, the cheap shot, the back stab, the double cross. - Jerry Marsischky

Let them trap us. We have our swords. - Elric of Melnibone.

You try to get them to play the game, but all they want to do is play the rules. - Ardak Kumerian

I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend - Faramir

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Attribute Design 4 years 2 weeks ago #43

Harlax wrote: I’d like to see INT and WIS become meaningful. I’d like that to be a simple thing that does not add to Coaching complexity.

Does tracking Int and wis the same as str and Dex add dramatic additional complexity?

Honestly, having them do anything will add to coaching complexity, unless the scan feature of the app gets a lot better anyway

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Attribute Design 4 years 2 weeks ago #44

The level of int and wis (as in threshholds) deciding number/types of spells - quite simple to check off during coaching right on the card given to the character. What was the argument against this again? Or did people not think it was 'interesting' enough?
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Attribute Design 4 years 2 weeks ago #45

Endgame wrote:

Harlax wrote: I’d like to see INT and WIS become meaningful. I’d like that to be a simple thing that does not add to Coaching complexity.

Does tracking Int and wis the same as str and Dex add dramatic additional complexity?


It clearly adds to complexity. Dramatic? On its own, not more dramatic than totaling focus. Combined with totaling focus? It adds time and time is our enemy.
D&D teaches all the important lessons in life - the low blow, the cheap shot, the back stab, the double cross. - Jerry Marsischky

Let them trap us. We have our swords. - Elric of Melnibone.

You try to get them to play the game, but all they want to do is play the rules. - Ardak Kumerian

I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend - Faramir

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Attribute Design 4 years 2 weeks ago #46

jpotter wrote: The level of int and wis (as in threshholds) deciding number/types of spells - quite simple to check off during coaching right on the card given to the character. What was the argument against this again? Or did people not think it was 'interesting' enough?

Isn’t that a NPE right in coaching?

Here is your character card. Now we are going to mark off a set of spells here, because clearly your $80 run cost wasn’t enough money spent.

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Attribute Design 4 years 2 weeks ago #47

Marking items off a card for those that don't have access is not a good approach.

A supplemental card or some way to mark the card the character card with a symbol to allow for passing skill checks would be better received.

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Attribute Design 4 years 2 weeks ago #48

edwin wrote: Marking items off a card for those that don't have access is not a good approach.

A supplemental card or some way to mark the card the character card with a symbol to allow for passing skill checks would be better received.


Disregarding drawbacks, I think the best option is something on the party card.
Eliminates the problem of explaining to newer players why they don’t have the bonus.
Provides an easier way for DMs to factor it.
Not sure but I think it would be fairly straight forward for coders to add.

Drawbacks
Costs Coaches additional time they don’t have
Requires a slight redesign of the party card
Gives DMs just one more thing to remember
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truedungeon.com/forum?view=topic&catid=583&id=247486

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