TOPIC: 2020 Transmute Recipes, From the QTR

Rob F wrote:
You can make multiple Relics with a single 1K order. You can most likely make 3 of them. Take the 1K you have and buy three Relics from Kirk, Trent, Laz, etc. Then you don't have to worry about dealing with a bunch of Tokens you don't need or being short on any of the trade goods. Same advice goes for others that are worried about recipes increasing.

I truly hope this is sarcasm

DrStupid v1.0 wrote:

Rob F wrote: You can make multiple Relics with a single 1K order. You can most likely make 3 of them. Take the 1K you have and buy three Relics from Kirk, Trent, Laz, etc. Then you don't have to worry about dealing with a bunch of Tokens you don't need or being short on any of the trade goods. Same advice goes for others that are worried about recipes increasing.

Which of the Relics from 2019 or 2020 can you make with a single 1k order???

I'm quite certain his point was instead of buying the 1K pack, spend the 1K on the relics from a reseller.

FWIW, before 2020, relic prices seem to be dropping to the point where one could get 3 relics and a 250 pack for 1K.

Wade Schwendemann wrote:

DrStupid v1.0 wrote:

Rob F wrote: You can make multiple Relics with a single 1K order. You can most likely make 3 of them. Take the 1K you have and buy three Relics from Kirk, Trent, Laz, etc. Then you don't have to worry about dealing with a bunch of Tokens you don't need or being short on any of the trade goods. Same advice goes for others that are worried about recipes increasing.

Which of the Relics from 2019 or 2020 can you make with a single 1k order???

I'm quite certain his point was instead of buying the 1K pack, spend the 1K on the relics from a reseller.

FWIW, before 2020, relic prices seem to be dropping to the point where one could get 3 relics and a 250 pack for 1K.

I suppose we wait and see what the secondary market decides to value the 2020 tokens at.

Steven wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote:
In particular, relics are not targeted at giving everyone something to do with leftovers - you need a lot of leftovers before relics come in reach, and always have.

I would be careful with this line of thinking, it’s very elitist and sounds like you don’t want people to play on your playground

I would also say that the relic is meant for everyone even if it is a pipe dream but to look at the recipes and do some math on how much you acquire in a given year you can say to your self “ 3 years and I’ll be able to get a relic that I earned and didn’t just buy off of the secondary market”
It’s also nice to know that if done smart that you can finally get an item that is desired and might get you able to trade.

It took me years to craft my first one. I had been playing casually for 6-7 years usually spending $250. The second year I spent $1000 made it possible on my own.

Wade Schwendemann wrote:

DrStupid v1.0 wrote:

Rob F wrote: You can make multiple Relics with a single 1K order. You can most likely make 3 of them. Take the 1K you have and buy three Relics from Kirk, Trent, Laz, etc. Then you don't have to worry about dealing with a bunch of Tokens you don't need or being short on any of the trade goods. Same advice goes for others that are worried about recipes increasing.

Which of the Relics from 2019 or 2020 can you make with a single 1k order???

I'm quite certain his point was instead of buying the 1K pack, spend the 1K on the relics from a reseller.

FWIW, before 2020, relic prices seem to be dropping to the point where one could get 3 relics and a 250 pack for 1K.

Yes, this was my point. 1K is 1K. And right now people get more bang for their buck buying off the secondary market.

DrStupid v1.0 wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote:

DrStupid v1.0 wrote:

Fred K wrote: I think the total amounts are fine - the $8K orders slightly increased trade goods available and I suspect we'll see something change in the treasure boxes.

My issue now is that the initial transmutes to relics that are time locked should be easier. I'd recommend moving 25% of the trade goods away from the relic transmute and shifting them over to the legendary. Someone can save up over several years for a legendary but not for a relic. For newer players or players with more limited budgets, I think this would be a good boost for the game. The legendaries should take quite a bit (especially since they are more powerful, by a lot, than they have ever been before. Last year's legendary rogue transmute nearly tripled rogue damage - this year's barbarian, ranger, and monk transmutes increase their damage substantially (barbarian likely 50%).)

Fred

First off I agree the recipes for the Relics should be lower. Especially since they are time locked.

As for the increase overall, the only thing that should influence the cost of a recipe is the power of the token itself to be made.

One could surmise the increase of trade goods needed is in part due to the overages in the secondary market. Why is this a consideration to increasing the recipe cost? (If indeed this is the case)

The entire purpose of transmutes is to keep a check on the depreciation in the secondary market.

As the secondary market value of R/UC/C tokens diminishes, people would be incented to buy fewer tokens. That's bad for TD.

So TD has an interest in the value of R/UC/C tokes not diminishing. One way to do that is to increase demand for those tokens. One way to increase demand for those tokens is to increase recipe costs.

None of this is new.

Forgive me, but if this is the case, those of us who consistently buy at a set budget will find it harder and harder to craft Relics and Legendary tokens.
I'm sorry, but if there is an overage of trade tokens, TD should find new ways of using these tokens besides increasing the difficulty in crafting the Relics and Legendary tokens.

Call it an incentive program if you want, to turn in extra trade tokens for some type of perk. Or even for a new token.

I'm not knocking you Matthew. I'm knocking the system. It's a great game and cool system to craft tokens like we do. But if this game wants to grow, it can't put such a high price on creating these tokens. New players may see that hill they have to climb and walk away. Is that good for the game?

And no my statement is not hyperbole. I'm an existing player and these recipes instantly have me pause about investing more in tokens. I was looking forward to my class-specific neck slot. I'm heavily leaving towards not investing now. How do we expect new players to invest when the mindset of recipes is done this way?

I'm grateful that True Dungeon even gives us the option of trading in tokens we don't need for transmuted tokens we do need/want. There isn't an option to trade in excess Magic the Gathering cards in a similar way, for instance.

Steven wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote:
In particular, relics are not targeted at giving everyone something to do with leftovers - you need a lot of leftovers before relics come in reach, and always have.

I would be careful with this line of thinking, it’s very elitist and sounds like you don’t want people to play on your playground

I would also say that the relic is meant for everyone even if it is a pipe dream but to look at the recipes and do some math on how much you acquire in a given year you can say to your self “ 3 years and I’ll be able to get a relic that I earned and didn’t just buy off of the secondary market”
It’s also nice to know that if done smart that you can finally get an item that is desired and might get you able to trade.

I'm not sure what line of thinking you're extrapolating. It's not like Relics used to be easy to make, and then got harder, and now I'm saying "let them eat relic-cake!"

I am sorry if it sounds like I'm telling people their not welcome, everyone is welcome I hope.

But, with regard to the charge of elitism...

The fact is: Legendaries are not for everyone. Relics are not for everyone. Ultrarares are not for everyone. Optimized rare builds are not for everyone. Buying a single token 10-pack other than what comes with the game is not for everyone.


If in your judgement it is elitist that in order to get a relic your options are:
* Collect and trade around $1000 of retail value in tokens, or a similarly large number of treasure pulls in the low hundreds
* Shell out $2-400 clams to directly purchase one on the secondary market.
Then True Dungeon would be an elitist game.

Even if you were a collector who:
1. Spent ~$40 a year on token 10 packs.
2. Runs the dungeon 3 times a year at 4 pulls per run.

You'd need 5-6 years of collecting and trading to build up the trade goods you'd need for a relic (plus you'd also need to get the UR ingredient somehow).

It's great if you want to do that and make your own relic, or even get one in ~3 years buying one $250 an order a year, running some, and making a bunch of trades.

But that is most definitely not a hobby for everyone, or even the majority of players.


I still remember the shock of getting really into token collecting, gathering me and my entire partys tokens from 3-4 years of playing plus ~$100 in additional purchases and trying to put together the ingredients and realizing I had like... not even an entire AG, EB, or OE. I was probably ~7 years in before I got a relic - and I don't think I ever had a relic before I had bought an $8k order (of which I resold a large portion).

Rob F wrote:

Wade Schwendemann wrote:

DrStupid v1.0 wrote:

Rob F wrote: You can make multiple Relics with a single 1K order. You can most likely make 3 of them. Take the 1K you have and buy three Relics from Kirk, Trent, Laz, etc. Then you don't have to worry about dealing with a bunch of Tokens you don't need or being short on any of the trade goods. Same advice goes for others that are worried about recipes increasing.

Which of the Relics from 2019 or 2020 can you make with a single 1k order???

I'm quite certain his point was instead of buying the 1K pack, spend the 1K on the relics from a reseller.

FWIW, before 2020, relic prices seem to be dropping to the point where one could get 3 relics and a 250 pack for 1K.

Yes, this was my point. 1K is 1K. And right now people get more bang for their buck buying off the secondary market.

For me, it will be a sad day if I become convinced I am better off buying everything on the secondary market versus direct token order.

DrStupid v1.0 wrote:

Wade Schwendemann wrote:

DrStupid v1.0 wrote:

Rob F wrote: You can make multiple Relics with a single 1K order. You can most likely make 3 of them. Take the 1K you have and buy three Relics from Kirk, Trent, Laz, etc. Then you don't have to worry about dealing with a bunch of Tokens you don't need or being short on any of the trade goods. Same advice goes for others that are worried about recipes increasing.

Which of the Relics from 2019 or 2020 can you make with a single 1k order???

I'm quite certain his point was instead of buying the 1K pack, spend the 1K on the relics from a reseller.

FWIW, before 2020, relic prices seem to be dropping to the point where one could get 3 relics and a 250 pack for 1K.

I suppose we wait and see what the secondary market decides to value the 2020 tokens at.

So I just broke down the "true" cost of the trade goods of a 8k order. I did this by looking at everything in an 8k order, putting an approxmiate value to it based on the recent batch of auctions, and totaling it up. For example, I placed PYP URs at 100 each, Random URs at 75 each, Dragon Orb at 500, Wish Ring at 200, and so on. The total was 5796.

This leaves 2,204 to distribute among the trade goods, and I assigned the trade goods at some pretty common values based on auction prices (ex: $14 for gold, .75 for plank) and the priced out one of the new relics, and one of the old Relics.

The old relic I picked was the Lute of Free Fury (True Cost 307.50, presuming you paid $100 for the UR, which is not a guarantee). By Spring 2019, I recall seeing the lute at $350 at the different token stores, but the current prices are $315 at Trent tokens and $400 at TD tavern. It appears that no one is selling the Lute at a loss - especially if you used one of those $75 random URs to make the Lute.

The new relic I picked was the Necklace of the Drake, True cost 406.25. If we presume that there will be a similar markup as seen last year, I expect to see the Necklace of the drake at around $475 to start, and possibly dropping as low as $425 over time.

In 2019, it appears that you could almost make a lute of free fury on a single $1K order. You would have to buy a few darkwood plank, and maybe an Ink depending on your boosters. You will certainly not have enough goods to buy 2 Relics.

In 2020, you will need to buy a 2k order to have enough Ink, Parchment, Plank, Silk, Stone, and Steel to make the Necklace of the Drake.

Matthew Hayward wrote:
But, with regard to the charge of elitism...

The fact is: Legendaries are not for everyone. Relics are not for everyone. Ultrarares are not for everyone. Optimized rare builds are not for everyone. Buying a single token 10-pack other than what comes with the game is not for everyone.

But that is most definitely not a hobby for everyone, or even the majority of players.

I would hope that you are wrong here in the fact that all tokens should be for everyone it all depends on how much a person likes the game and the goal would be to have achievable goals that new players can see
If you are saying that this game isn’t for everyone then I would say you are correct, not everyone will enjoy it but I don’t want to be told “sorry new guy these tokens just aren’t for you”. That’s for the player to decide and for the community to help them get to that lvl if THEY choose

Endgame wrote:

DrStupid v1.0 wrote:

Wade Schwendemann wrote:

DrStupid v1.0 wrote:

Rob F wrote: You can make multiple Relics with a single 1K order. You can most likely make 3 of them. Take the 1K you have and buy three Relics from Kirk, Trent, Laz, etc. Then you don't have to worry about dealing with a bunch of Tokens you don't need or being short on any of the trade goods. Same advice goes for others that are worried about recipes increasing.

Which of the Relics from 2019 or 2020 can you make with a single 1k order???

I'm quite certain his point was instead of buying the 1K pack, spend the 1K on the relics from a reseller.

FWIW, before 2020, relic prices seem to be dropping to the point where one could get 3 relics and a 250 pack for 1K.

I suppose we wait and see what the secondary market decides to value the 2020 tokens at.

So I just broke down the "true" cost of the trade goods of a 8k order. I did this by looking at everything in an 8k order, putting an approxmiate value to it based on the recent batch of auctions, and totaling it up. For example, I placed PYP URs at 100 each, Random URs at 75 each, Dragon Orb at 500, Wish Ring at 200, and so on. The total was 5796.

This leaves 2,204 to distribute among the trade goods, and I assigned the trade goods at some pretty common values based on auction prices (ex: $14 for gold, .75 for plank) and the priced out one of the new relics, and one of the old Relics.

The old relic I picked was the Lute of Free Fury (True Cost 307.50, presuming you paid $100 for the UR, which is not a guarantee). By Spring 2019, I recall seeing the lute at $350 at the different token stores, but the current prices are $315 at Trent tokens and $400 at TD tavern. It appears that no one is selling the Lute at a loss - especially if you used one of those $75 random URs to make the Lute.

The new relic I picked was the Necklace of the Drake, True cost 406.25. If we presume that there will be a similar markup as seen last year, I expect to see the Necklace of the drake at around $475 to start, and possibly dropping as low as $425 over time.

In 2019, it appears that you could almost make a lute of free fury on a single $1K order. You would have to buy a few darkwood plank, and maybe an Ink depending on your boosters. You will certainly not have enough goods to buy 2 Relics.

In 2020, you will need to buy a 2k order to have enough Ink, Parchment, Plank, Silk, Stone, and Steel to make the Necklace of the Drake.

Regarding the Lute of Free Fury...even with a Lute of Fury at $100 I think your missing something. How did you get a transmute cost of $307.50?

Edit: Also I think your logic is flawed in terms of the cost comparison. On one hand your taking the sum of low auction prices for all the components used to make a Relic and your comparing that total to the retail price of the Relic on a store front. To do a like comparison you should either take the sum of all the component prices from the storefront vs. the cost of the Relic on the storefront OR the sum of the component prices from the auction vs. an auction price of the completed Relic. The last two Lute's of Free Fury on Ebay sold for $230 and $250.01.

Steven wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote:
But, with regard to the charge of elitism...

The fact is: Legendaries are not for everyone. Relics are not for everyone. Ultrarares are not for everyone. Optimized rare builds are not for everyone. Buying a single token 10-pack other than what comes with the game is not for everyone.

But that is most definitely not a hobby for everyone, or even the majority of players.

I would hope that you are wrong here in the fact that all tokens should be for everyone it all depends on how much a person likes the game and the goal would be to have achievable goals that new players can see
If you are saying that this game isn’t for everyone then I would say you are correct, not everyone will enjoy it but I don’t want to be told “sorry new guy these tokens just aren’t for you”. That’s for the player to decide and for the community to help them get to that lvl if THEY choose

I think we're talking past each other on what I mean when I say "X isn't for everyone."

When I say: "Relics are not for everyone." I mean "Not everyone who plays, or even loves, TD knows about, cares about, or wants a relic. Some who do know, care about, and want relics will never undertake the steps necessary to obtain one."

I do not mean: "Some people aren't allowed to have relics."

So, it's not: "sorry new guy, these token's aren't just for you."

It's: Hello 7 year vet, long time volunteer, or new gal or guy, Relics are for people who have bought, looted, or traded for hundreds of uncommon and rare tokens (or trade good equivalents) in of specific types in specific ratios.


But you know - I am looking at the recipes for 2020 and I didn't quite realize that they were ~1.5-2x more than prior recipes That is a really big jump for one year. I can empathize with someone whose been saving up to get a relic and is now thinking they'll need twice the trade goods.

On the flip side, back in the day, max treasure for a dungeon was 0-3. Then 0-9 with HoP. Now it's 20, and you can get to 5 without a UR.