TOPIC: 2020 Transmute Recipes, From the QTR

DrStupid v1.0 wrote:

Fred K wrote: I think the total amounts are fine - the $8K orders slightly increased trade goods available and I suspect we'll see something change in the treasure boxes.

My issue now is that the initial transmutes to relics that are time locked should be easier. I'd recommend moving 25% of the trade goods away from the relic transmute and shifting them over to the legendary. Someone can save up over several years for a legendary but not for a relic. For newer players or players with more limited budgets, I think this would be a good boost for the game. The legendaries should take quite a bit (especially since they are more powerful, by a lot, than they have ever been before. Last year's legendary rogue transmute nearly tripled rogue damage - this year's barbarian, ranger, and monk transmutes increase their damage substantially (barbarian likely 50%).)

Fred

First off I agree the recipes for the Relics should be lower. Especially since they are time locked.

As for the increase overall, the only thing that should influence the cost of a recipe is the power of the token itself to be made.

One could surmise the increase of trade goods needed is in part due to the overages in the secondary market. Why is this a consideration to increasing the recipe cost? (If indeed this is the case)

The entire purpose of transmutes is to keep a check on the depreciation in the secondary market.

As the secondary market value of R/UC/C tokens diminishes, people would be incented to buy fewer tokens. That's bad for TD.

So TD has an interest in the value of R/UC/C tokes not diminishing. One way to do that is to increase demand for those tokens. One way to increase demand for those tokens is to increase recipe costs.

None of this is new.

Matthew Hayward wrote:

DrStupid v1.0 wrote:

Fred K wrote: I think the total amounts are fine - the $8K orders slightly increased trade goods available and I suspect we'll see something change in the treasure boxes.

My issue now is that the initial transmutes to relics that are time locked should be easier. I'd recommend moving 25% of the trade goods away from the relic transmute and shifting them over to the legendary. Someone can save up over several years for a legendary but not for a relic. For newer players or players with more limited budgets, I think this would be a good boost for the game. The legendaries should take quite a bit (especially since they are more powerful, by a lot, than they have ever been before. Last year's legendary rogue transmute nearly tripled rogue damage - this year's barbarian, ranger, and monk transmutes increase their damage substantially (barbarian likely 50%).)

Fred

First off I agree the recipes for the Relics should be lower. Especially since they are time locked.

As for the increase overall, the only thing that should influence the cost of a recipe is the power of the token itself to be made.

One could surmise the increase of trade goods needed is in part due to the overages in the secondary market. Why is this a consideration to increasing the recipe cost? (If indeed this is the case)

The entire purpose of transmutes is to keep a check on the depreciation in the secondary market.

As the secondary market value of R/UC/C tokens diminishes, people would be incented to buy fewer tokens. That's bad for TD.

So TD has an interest in the value of R/UC/C tokes not diminishing. One way to do that is to increase demand for those tokens. One way to increase demand for those tokens is to increase recipe costs.

None of this is new.

If the transmute cost increases to such a price that people say “too expensive” then it is in the best interest of Td to not increase the cost.

Trade goods have dropped in price due to extras being added to the 8k sets, such as dragon orbs, combined with the increase in auctions. The “cost” of the trade goods had thus dropped, and its reflected in auction price.

Want trade goods to go up in price? Don’t replace teeth and dragon orbs, move ag tokens to direct sales, etc, . Trade good sales price will have to increase to fund auctions.

Matthew Hayward wrote:

DrStupid v1.0 wrote:

Fred K wrote: I think the total amounts are fine - the $8K orders slightly increased trade goods available and I suspect we'll see something change in the treasure boxes.

My issue now is that the initial transmutes to relics that are time locked should be easier. I'd recommend moving 25% of the trade goods away from the relic transmute and shifting them over to the legendary. Someone can save up over several years for a legendary but not for a relic. For newer players or players with more limited budgets, I think this would be a good boost for the game. The legendaries should take quite a bit (especially since they are more powerful, by a lot, than they have ever been before. Last year's legendary rogue transmute nearly tripled rogue damage - this year's barbarian, ranger, and monk transmutes increase their damage substantially (barbarian likely 50%).)

Fred

First off I agree the recipes for the Relics should be lower. Especially since they are time locked.

As for the increase overall, the only thing that should influence the cost of a recipe is the power of the token itself to be made.

One could surmise the increase of trade goods needed is in part due to the overages in the secondary market. Why is this a consideration to increasing the recipe cost? (If indeed this is the case)

The entire purpose of transmutes is to keep a check on the depreciation in the secondary market.

As the secondary market value of R/UC/C tokens diminishes, people would be incented to buy fewer tokens. That's bad for TD.

So TD has an interest in the value of R/UC/C tokes not diminishing. One way to do that is to increase demand for those tokens. One way to increase demand for those tokens is to increase recipe costs.

None of this is new.

It could be possible for individual 10-packs to have a secondary market value expected to be less than the cost of the pack and for TD to stay profitable selling packs of the $250, $1000, and/or $8000 packs have a total secondary market value beyond MSRP due to their added extras. The trade tokens don’t have to be the part that adds a large amount of value if the other components add enough value.

Personally, I have never felt that 3, 4, or 5 star blue 2-year transmutes were intended to be the large token sinks sucking up most of the trade goods, but maybe they are. I don’t think trying to use them to adjust market surpluses makes the most sense. That seemed to be more the intended function of the legendaries. In fact, since legendaries are timeless transmutes, why not have their recipes adjust over time to account for current trade food surpluses and act as better sinks? Or why not adjust the rate trade goods are produced per year (by altering the ratio of trade good components in the C, U, and R token pools or altering how many components are needed to make those trade goods)? Are we sure the solution is just spending more trade goods on 5 star relics?

Endgame wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote:

DrStupid v1.0 wrote:

Fred K wrote: I think the total amounts are fine - the $8K orders slightly increased trade goods available and I suspect we'll see something change in the treasure boxes.

My issue now is that the initial transmutes to relics that are time locked should be easier. I'd recommend moving 25% of the trade goods away from the relic transmute and shifting them over to the legendary. Someone can save up over several years for a legendary but not for a relic. For newer players or players with more limited budgets, I think this would be a good boost for the game. The legendaries should take quite a bit (especially since they are more powerful, by a lot, than they have ever been before. Last year's legendary rogue transmute nearly tripled rogue damage - this year's barbarian, ranger, and monk transmutes increase their damage substantially (barbarian likely 50%).)

Fred

First off I agree the recipes for the Relics should be lower. Especially since they are time locked.

As for the increase overall, the only thing that should influence the cost of a recipe is the power of the token itself to be made.

One could surmise the increase of trade goods needed is in part due to the overages in the secondary market. Why is this a consideration to increasing the recipe cost? (If indeed this is the case)

The entire purpose of transmutes is to keep a check on the depreciation in the secondary market.

As the secondary market value of R/UC/C tokens diminishes, people would be incented to buy fewer tokens. That's bad for TD.

So TD has an interest in the value of R/UC/C tokes not diminishing. One way to do that is to increase demand for those tokens. One way to increase demand for those tokens is to increase recipe costs.

None of this is new.

If the transmute cost increases to such a price that people say “too expensive” then it is in the best interest of Td to not increase the cost.

Trade goods have dropped in price due to extras being added to the 8k sets, such as dragon orbs, combined with the increase in auctions. The “cost” of the trade goods had thus dropped, and its reflected in auction price.

Want trade goods to go up in price? Don’t replace teeth and dragon orbs, move ag tokens to direct sales, etc, . Trade good sales price will have to increase to fund auctions.

I disagree with this. Trade good prices have nothing to do with the extras. Nothing. It's simple supply and demand. The reason they are the lowest they've ever been on the secondary market is because no one wants them like they used to. If there was more demand the prices would go up.

Rob F wrote:

Endgame wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote:

DrStupid v1.0 wrote:

Fred K wrote: I think the total amounts are fine - the $8K orders slightly increased trade goods available and I suspect we'll see something change in the treasure boxes.

My issue now is that the initial transmutes to relics that are time locked should be easier. I'd recommend moving 25% of the trade goods away from the relic transmute and shifting them over to the legendary. Someone can save up over several years for a legendary but not for a relic. For newer players or players with more limited budgets, I think this would be a good boost for the game. The legendaries should take quite a bit (especially since they are more powerful, by a lot, than they have ever been before. Last year's legendary rogue transmute nearly tripled rogue damage - this year's barbarian, ranger, and monk transmutes increase their damage substantially (barbarian likely 50%).)

Fred

First off I agree the recipes for the Relics should be lower. Especially since they are time locked.

As for the increase overall, the only thing that should influence the cost of a recipe is the power of the token itself to be made.

One could surmise the increase of trade goods needed is in part due to the overages in the secondary market. Why is this a consideration to increasing the recipe cost? (If indeed this is the case)

The entire purpose of transmutes is to keep a check on the depreciation in the secondary market.

As the secondary market value of R/UC/C tokens diminishes, people would be incented to buy fewer tokens. That's bad for TD.

So TD has an interest in the value of R/UC/C tokes not diminishing. One way to do that is to increase demand for those tokens. One way to increase demand for those tokens is to increase recipe costs.

None of this is new.

If the transmute cost increases to such a price that people say “too expensive” then it is in the best interest of Td to not increase the cost.

Trade goods have dropped in price due to extras being added to the 8k sets, such as dragon orbs, combined with the increase in auctions. The “cost” of the trade goods had thus dropped, and its reflected in auction price.

Want trade goods to go up in price? Don’t replace teeth and dragon orbs, move ag tokens to direct sales, etc, . Trade good sales price will have to increase to fund auctions.

I disagree with this. Trade good prices have nothing to do with the extras. Nothing. It's simple supply and demand. The reason they are the lowest they've ever been on the secondary market is because no one wants them like they used to. If there was more demand the

The auction formats being run right now all fund at 7500, and another launches right after. Around 3500 Is urs, 500 of that is a dragon orb and another 450 is teeth. There is another 100 or more on misc items. There is no incentive to over pay given another auction is right around the corner, and over half is non trade good.

Divide 3000 among the trade goods and you get the prices they are selling at. They won’t go past that due to the next auction

Matthew Hayward wrote:

DrStupid v1.0 wrote:

Fred K wrote: I think the total amounts are fine - the $8K orders slightly increased trade goods available and I suspect we'll see something change in the treasure boxes.

My issue now is that the initial transmutes to relics that are time locked should be easier. I'd recommend moving 25% of the trade goods away from the relic transmute and shifting them over to the legendary. Someone can save up over several years for a legendary but not for a relic. For newer players or players with more limited budgets, I think this would be a good boost for the game. The legendaries should take quite a bit (especially since they are more powerful, by a lot, than they have ever been before. Last year's legendary rogue transmute nearly tripled rogue damage - this year's barbarian, ranger, and monk transmutes increase their damage substantially (barbarian likely 50%).)

Fred

First off I agree the recipes for the Relics should be lower. Especially since they are time locked.

As for the increase overall, the only thing that should influence the cost of a recipe is the power of the token itself to be made.

One could surmise the increase of trade goods needed is in part due to the overages in the secondary market. Why is this a consideration to increasing the recipe cost? (If indeed this is the case)

The entire purpose of transmutes is to keep a check on the depreciation in the secondary market.

As the secondary market value of R/UC/C tokens diminishes, people would be incented to buy fewer tokens. That's bad for TD.

So TD has an interest in the value of R/UC/C tokes not diminishing. One way to do that is to increase demand for those tokens. One way to increase demand for those tokens is to increase recipe costs.

None of this is new.

Forgive me, but if this is the case, those of us who consistently buy at a set budget will find it harder and harder to craft Relics and Legendary tokens.
I'm sorry, but if there is an overage of trade tokens, TD should find new ways of using these tokens besides increasing the difficulty in crafting the Relics and Legendary tokens.

Call it an incentive program if you want, to turn in extra trade tokens for some type of perk. Or even for a new token.

I'm not knocking you Matthew. I'm knocking the system. It's a great game and cool system to craft tokens like we do. But if this game wants to grow, it can't put such a high price on creating these tokens. New players may see that hill they have to climb and walk away. Is that good for the game?

And no my statement is not hyperbole. I'm an existing player and these recipes instantly have me pause about investing more in tokens. I was looking forward to my class-specific neck slot. I'm heavily leaving towards not investing now. How do we expect new players to invest when the mindset of recipes is done this way?

I think the rapid increase of cons, more runs, and more treasure has had an effect on the number of trade tokens as well.
Since Legendary recipes don’t change, I think it’s more logical to have the blue transmutes be more of a trade goods sink when needed and not as much when trade goods scarce.

DrStupid v1.0 wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote:

DrStupid v1.0 wrote:

Fred K wrote: I think the total amounts are fine - the $8K orders slightly increased trade goods available and I suspect we'll see something change in the treasure boxes.

My issue now is that the initial transmutes to relics that are time locked should be easier. I'd recommend moving 25% of the trade goods away from the relic transmute and shifting them over to the legendary. Someone can save up over several years for a legendary but not for a relic. For newer players or players with more limited budgets, I think this would be a good boost for the game. The legendaries should take quite a bit (especially since they are more powerful, by a lot, than they have ever been before. Last year's legendary rogue transmute nearly tripled rogue damage - this year's barbarian, ranger, and monk transmutes increase their damage substantially (barbarian likely 50%).)

Fred

First off I agree the recipes for the Relics should be lower. Especially since they are time locked.

As for the increase overall, the only thing that should influence the cost of a recipe is the power of the token itself to be made.

One could surmise the increase of trade goods needed is in part due to the overages in the secondary market. Why is this a consideration to increasing the recipe cost? (If indeed this is the case)

The entire purpose of transmutes is to keep a check on the depreciation in the secondary market.

As the secondary market value of R/UC/C tokens diminishes, people would be incented to buy fewer tokens. That's bad for TD.

So TD has an interest in the value of R/UC/C tokes not diminishing. One way to do that is to increase demand for those tokens. One way to increase demand for those tokens is to increase recipe costs.

None of this is new.

Forgive me, but if this is the case, those of us who consistently buy at a set budget will find it harder and harder to craft Relics and Legendary tokens.
I'm sorry, but if there is an overage of trade tokens, TD should find new ways of using these tokens besides increasing the difficulty in crafting the Relics and Legendary tokens.

Call it an incentive program if you want, to turn in extra trade tokens for some type of perk. Or even for a new token.

I'm not knocking you Matthew. I'm knocking the system. It's a great game and cool system to craft tokens like we do. But if this game wants to grow, it can't put such a high price on creating these tokens. New players may see that hill they have to climb and walk away. Is that good for the game?

And no my statement is not hyperbole. I'm an existing player and these recipes instantly have me pause about investing more in tokens. I was looking forward to my class-specific neck slot. I'm heavily leaving towards not investing now. How do we expect new players to invest when the mindset of recipes is done this way?

I'm all for more demand for C/UC/R tokens - however that can come about.

Increasing recipes is one way - there certainly are many others, and I'd love to see them all:
* More desirable starter recipes like Blessed TEmpest GLoves, Enchanter's WHetstone, etc.
* TD Run auctions that take trade goods and GP.
* Legendary+ items which are ~3x the crafting cost of legendaries for a +7??? (Maybe this is a bad idea...)

I hear what you're saying about tapping out - but if it's about money, I have a practical suggestion: Buy the relic someone else made - it will be cheaper than the goods - this has been pretty steady state for ~5+ years now.

The main issue I have with quantity of trade good out there being the driving force for recipes is how many people are actually the cause of the trade good surplus?
Non stop auctions have flooded the market but how many different people are actually partaking in these auctions?
And the talk of more cons so more treasure being out there is also affecting but once again how many different people are drawing that much treasure ? I would say I draw about 350 treasure a year and that is probably way above average and that amount of treasure isn’t enough to affect any supply/demand graph.
So is it healthy for a game that is trying to grow change things based on 30 different people that are running non stop auctions and drawing 2k-3k treasure a year?

Matthew Hayward wrote:

DrStupid v1.0 wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote:

DrStupid v1.0 wrote:

Fred K wrote: I think the total amounts are fine - the $8K orders slightly increased trade goods available and I suspect we'll see something change in the treasure boxes.

My issue now is that the initial transmutes to relics that are time locked should be easier. I'd recommend moving 25% of the trade goods away from the relic transmute and shifting them over to the legendary. Someone can save up over several years for a legendary but not for a relic. For newer players or players with more limited budgets, I think this would be a good boost for the game. The legendaries should take quite a bit (especially since they are more powerful, by a lot, than they have ever been before. Last year's legendary rogue transmute nearly tripled rogue damage - this year's barbarian, ranger, and monk transmutes increase their damage substantially (barbarian likely 50%).)

Fred

First off I agree the recipes for the Relics should be lower. Especially since they are time locked.

As for the increase overall, the only thing that should influence the cost of a recipe is the power of the token itself to be made.

One could surmise the increase of trade goods needed is in part due to the overages in the secondary market. Why is this a consideration to increasing the recipe cost? (If indeed this is the case)

The entire purpose of transmutes is to keep a check on the depreciation in the secondary market.

As the secondary market value of R/UC/C tokens diminishes, people would be incented to buy fewer tokens. That's bad for TD.

So TD has an interest in the value of R/UC/C tokes not diminishing. One way to do that is to increase demand for those tokens. One way to increase demand for those tokens is to increase recipe costs.

None of this is new.

Forgive me, but if this is the case, those of us who consistently buy at a set budget will find it harder and harder to craft Relics and Legendary tokens.
I'm sorry, but if there is an overage of trade tokens, TD should find new ways of using these tokens besides increasing the difficulty in crafting the Relics and Legendary tokens.

Call it an incentive program if you want, to turn in extra trade tokens for some type of perk. Or even for a new token.

I'm not knocking you Matthew. I'm knocking the system. It's a great game and cool system to craft tokens like we do. But if this game wants to grow, it can't put such a high price on creating these tokens. New players may see that hill they have to climb and walk away. Is that good for the game?

And no my statement is not hyperbole. I'm an existing player and these recipes instantly have me pause about investing more in tokens. I was looking forward to my class-specific neck slot. I'm heavily leaving towards not investing now. How do we expect new players to invest when the mindset of recipes is done this way?

I'm all for more demand for C/UC/R tokens - however that can come about.

Increasing recipes is one way - there certainly are many others, and I'd love to see them all:
* More desirable starter recipes like Blessed TEmpest GLoves, Enchanter's WHetstone, etc.
* TD Run auctions that take trade goods and GP.
* Legendary+ items which are ~3x the crafting cost of legendaries for a +7??? (Maybe this is a bad idea...)

I hear what you're saying about tapping out - but if it's about money, I have a practical suggestion: Buy the relic someone else made - it will be cheaper than the goods - this has been pretty steady state for ~5+ years now.

Buying the Relic/Legendary outright is an option I am considering. Some like me might just focus on lower level transmutes to make. I do like the crafting when I can. It does feel like an accomplishment to make the tokens.

I'm sure there is more than one solution to the how to handle the topic of trade good tokens. I like to see something other than just bumping recipes by 25%, or whatever the trend is. Perhaps something of a topic that can be looked at further down the road.

For a trade good sink I really liked the idea of a Warcraft style “war effort” where you can have the top contributor get something special and everyone else get something based on a tier contribution system.
Or have it where if you contribute x amount of trade goods you can get a completion token of your choice, this would help make it so you could still make completion tokens for every con and the people who can’t attend can still get them

Steven wrote: Or have it where if you contribute x amount of trade goods you can get a completion token of your choice, this would help make it so you could still make completion tokens for every con and the people who can’t attend can still get them

OH PLEASE OH PLEASE YES THIS ONE