TOPIC: Time to start the 2021 Token dev process

Fiddy wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

Endgame wrote:

Wade Schwendemann wrote: I believe N1 Astral Journey had a magic immune monster

It was the Ogre Mage that was immune to spells, excluding Magic Missile, if I remember correctly, and it was also inaccessible to melee the first round of combat as well.

It's not exactly the same thing, but it does essentially ask the Wizard to pull out their ranged weapon. I'm thinking something similar, but the monster is immune to +1 to +5 weapons. If you want to damage it, pull out your normal Long Sword, or your Masterwork Broad Sword.

Cool concept. Probably easier implemented as immune to magical weapons. There's a heavy grey area around rare weapons with some having +1 and others not.

Also seems a bad idea for new player retention to make a monster immune to their only rare weapon for non UR players.

I see no issue letting UR+ players get screwed like that. We have a lot more investment into the game and can learn to adapt to a monster like that. It's not going to drive us away and it opens up interesting options for non magical UR weapons, or more likely non magical 3*/4* transmute weapons.

Generally speaking I'm totally good with an encounter design that punishes high tier tokens but lets Rare- builds run as normal.

I'm only cool with this idea if the creature is also immune to spells. Surely if magic weapons don't work, spells won't either.

But I dislike the idea overall. It feels like you mostly punish people in the middle that have upgraded their weapon but haven't reached the point of carrying around a golf bag of backup weapons.

There have been monsters that were immune to (at least some) magic weapons, but not spells.

The Chain Demon comes to mind.

Also, all +1 weapons (and hence most rare weapons) are magical.

Overall I have a dim view of hosers - I think they introduce more sorrow than happiness. Remember the first time we found the mind flatter, and it was completely immune to ranged (and hence completely immune to non-AoE spells) and had a 50%miss chance for melee? I don’t recall people being happy it was awesome or a challenge.

I do recall people being mad their magical lenses didn’t help them see and that the combat was too swingy.

If we must have hosers I think it’s better to evenly hose melee, ranger, and spell in different spots, rather than turn off all magic weapons (which gets melee and ranged both)


At nightmare / epic it could be nice to have monsters that adapt.

E.g. if they take the most damage from melee they drink stone skin the next round, if from ranged they bring a windstorm, if from spell they cast silence. This would only be fun if the DM clearly communicates what is happening before you attack. You making an attack and the DM saying: “you feel as if your fire based attack should more effective” is not fun.

+1 Metal Axe of Shredding
+1/+1 or +0/+2 rare bard instrument/weapon (maybe it's a double guitar and allows you to switch bonuses?)

Singsalot wrote: +1 Metal Axe of Shredding
+1/+1 or +0/+2 rare bard instrument/weapon (maybe it's a double guitar and allows you to switch bonuses?)

That sounds fun

Maybe make it a melee weapon that can be used while bardsong like the flute

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

Singsalot wrote: +1 Metal Axe of Shredding
+1/+1 or +0/+2 rare bard instrument/weapon (maybe it's a double guitar and allows you to switch bonuses?)

That sounds fun

Maybe make it a melee weapon that can be used while bardsong like the flute

+1/+1 with no action is the UR Lute of Fury. +1/+1 and a melee attack is Free Fury territory. +2 damage and physical attack is UR Widseth's.

Melee equivalent to the flute would be +1 weapon and can bardsong + attack.

Marcques Domask wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

Singsalot wrote: +1 Metal Axe of Shredding
+1/+1 or +0/+2 rare bard instrument/weapon (maybe it's a double guitar and allows you to switch bonuses?)

That sounds fun

Maybe make it a melee weapon that can be used while bardsong like the flute

+1/+1 with no action is the UR Lute of Fury. +1/+1 and a melee attack is Free Fury territory. +2 damage and physical attack is UR Widseth's.

Melee equivalent to the flute would be +1 weapon and can bardsong + attack.

Yeah, would have to drop the bardsong bonuses to be able to attack. Still a good option if we did

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

Marcques Domask wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

Singsalot wrote: +1 Metal Axe of Shredding
+1/+1 or +0/+2 rare bard instrument/weapon (maybe it's a double guitar and allows you to switch bonuses?)

That sounds fun

Maybe make it a melee weapon that can be used while bardsong like the flute

+1/+1 with no action is the UR Lute of Fury. +1/+1 and a melee attack is Free Fury territory. +2 damage and physical attack is UR Widseth's.

Melee equivalent to the flute would be +1 weapon and can bardsong + attack.

Yeah, would have to drop the bardsong bonuses to be able to attack. Still a good option if we did

Oh, it'd still be a lot of fun. But, bonuses would need to go away

1) You can already choose between using multiple different instruments, so having a token that allows the choice between 2 bonuses of equivalent value is only saving you a buck, if that. Also reduces the need for reprints.

2) I don't think the Blowgun Flute is a good token. You could arrange a build around it that could do in the teens of damage with Rares, or even 20+ with major tokens, but at that point you could just be using Free Fury, which would provide better bardsong anyway.

Compare:

No Instrument
4th level Bard (no instrument): +1/+1

Common
Pixie Lyre: +1/+2

(at the Common level, we could have a 1-6 non-thrown, 2-handed axe that allows a no-bonus bardsong)

(Note that this would not work with the Footman set, which honestly, no current instrument should, but you know.)

Uncommon
Antressor/Muting/Luck/Siren/Trouper: +1/+1 +other bonus
Rage: +2/+1
Magnificent: +1/+3

(it would appear that TD considers +1 to Hit to be equal value to +2 damage, not sure I agree but that's probably different at Normal vs Nightmare.)

(An Uncommon Axe-instrument might be a 1-8 2-handed axe that provides +1 bardsong damage.)

Rare
Blowgun Flute: +1/+1 and 2-5 (maybe 10-13 or even 20-25 if equipped to maximize ranged damage)
Echoes: +1/+1 and 50% use of any action
Lore: +1/+3 and Lore check

(Lore allows +2 damage but only 1 extra action for the room - Echoes allows attacks with any weapon or spells, but only half the time. I think a melee attack with one specific weapon balances ok against those two things.)

(+1 Starmetal Axe 2-9 2-handed axe with no bonus or +1 dmg bonus?)

(Wouldn't be a big deal to offer the choice of +1 to hit or +2 damage and forgo the attack, making it the equivalent of 2 out of date UC instruments without reprinting 2 tokens)

Ultra Rare
Amorgen: +1/+3 and Scrolls
Briano: +1/+3 and Spells
Fury: +2/+2
Widseth's: +1/+3 and Attack

(At the UR level, Widseth's provides +2 damage and the choice of any Bard-eligible melee or ranged weapon. Fury is +1/+1 with no actions (equivalent +3 damage?), but seems to me is only there to be transmuted, unless you are committed to +1 to hit and want better than Rage. In all cases, it's the use of an ability every round that takes it to UR vs Lore, or the combination of Hit & Damage bonuses that make Fury UR vs the uncommons.)

(+2/+1 bonus on a +1 or +2 2-handed low-damage wheel axe = Fury
+1/+3 bonus on the same weapon = worse than Widseth's, equivalent-ish to other 2?)

(I think it's fair to have an UR instrument that lets you pick 2 of 3: +1 to hit, +2 to damage, or attack with a fairly weak weapon, or alternatively one of 3: +2 to hit, +3 damage, or attack with a moderate weapon.
Honestly I think +1/+1 with a +1 to hit 2-9 weapon is fair, even though it's better than the Fury)

Relic
Free Fury: +2/+2 and ANY action

(+2/+2 and a basic magic weapon is now too weak, so either a very competitive damage wheel, or +2 to hit, or +1 to hit/+2 damage, or something: or else, make it easier to make than the Free Fury)

Legendary
Widseth's: +3/+3 and ANY action

(we don't need another Legendary instrument right now, or really ever)

Wade Schwendemann wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Wade Schwendemann wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Philip Goodman wrote: I also want to state something that should be abundantly clear:
The class relic/legendary should not be a place to balance a class!

The Paladin Legendary grants +5 to hit, a stacking +1 to number of players guarded 1/game, 15 points of healing, a twice per game party wide save bonus, auto-kills evil outsiders on a slid 20, and is effectively slotless.

Wizards should not be chastised for desiring a legendary token that includes elements such as:
* large party card bonuses to damage in their preferred attack mode
* unprecedented bonuses to actions tied to the class
* effectively granting additional standard actions
* effectively slotless

For those of you with feelings about the Wizard Legendary, I encourage you to Please put your preferences in the informal poll by picking a column, labeling it with your name, and filling in the options:

docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1L_b-2cnyVo3Qfx0y0L4pmz5UFBBjDBEEaf805H9VzcE/edit#gid=0


Also consider reading/contributing to the prior thread on this topic at:

truedungeon.com/forum?view=topic&catid=570&id=249841

Ok, everything else aside, the Paladin legendary is NOT effectively slotless. It is a one handed melee weapon. The Paladin player has to choose between attempting to use their legendary, or using a 2 handed weapon with the potential to then add several damage boosters that don't apply to one handed weapons.

When class specific legendary items were announced, it was stated that they would be in the neck slot, except for the legendary bard instrument and the Holy Avenger.

Wizard players (and all other classes save those two) should be chastised for asking for something that is "effectively slotless," if for no other reason than it takes away from legitimate conversation.

What "choice" are you referring to that Paladin's are forced to make?

Nothing prohibits a Paladin from:

A. Equipping a two handed melee weapon at build time, and gaining all desired benefits from that build.
B. Switching into their +5 HA when they want to use its Grace, Guard, Lay on Hands, or Auto-kill outsider ability

It may be that the HA isn't effectively slotless, but I can't think of any plausible scenarios where it isn't, and the example you provided does not seem to either.

That is fair. I was (incorrecrly) assuming you meant it was slotless because it didnt occupy the neck slot.

Honestly, I didn't consider the idea of switching melee weapons after entering things into a build.

Could a reason of not considering the swap be because good and just pally’s don’t look to cheese out mechanics?

Justice wrote:

Wade Schwendemann wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Wade Schwendemann wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Philip Goodman wrote: I also want to state something that should be abundantly clear:
The class relic/legendary should not be a place to balance a class!

The Paladin Legendary grants +5 to hit, a stacking +1 to number of players guarded 1/game, 15 points of healing, a twice per game party wide save bonus, auto-kills evil outsiders on a slid 20, and is effectively slotless.

Wizards should not be chastised for desiring a legendary token that includes elements such as:
* large party card bonuses to damage in their preferred attack mode
* unprecedented bonuses to actions tied to the class
* effectively granting additional standard actions
* effectively slotless

For those of you with feelings about the Wizard Legendary, I encourage you to Please put your preferences in the informal poll by picking a column, labeling it with your name, and filling in the options:

docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1L_b-2cnyVo3Qfx0y0L4pmz5UFBBjDBEEaf805H9VzcE/edit#gid=0


Also consider reading/contributing to the prior thread on this topic at:

truedungeon.com/forum?view=topic&catid=570&id=249841

Ok, everything else aside, the Paladin legendary is NOT effectively slotless. It is a one handed melee weapon. The Paladin player has to choose between attempting to use their legendary, or using a 2 handed weapon with the potential to then add several damage boosters that don't apply to one handed weapons.

When class specific legendary items were announced, it was stated that they would be in the neck slot, except for the legendary bard instrument and the Holy Avenger.

Wizard players (and all other classes save those two) should be chastised for asking for something that is "effectively slotless," if for no other reason than it takes away from legitimate conversation.

What "choice" are you referring to that Paladin's are forced to make?

Nothing prohibits a Paladin from:

A. Equipping a two handed melee weapon at build time, and gaining all desired benefits from that build.
B. Switching into their +5 HA when they want to use its Grace, Guard, Lay on Hands, or Auto-kill outsider ability

It may be that the HA isn't effectively slotless, but I can't think of any plausible scenarios where it isn't, and the example you provided does not seem to either.

That is fair. I was (incorrecrly) assuming you meant it was slotless because it didnt occupy the neck slot.

Honestly, I didn't consider the idea of switching melee weapons after entering things into a build.

Could a reason of not considering the swap be because good and just pally’s don’t look to cheese out mechanics?

+1

I propose:

Bag of Returning (Rare)
A single use item is returned to you (spent) after use
1 use per game

Tricksters Bag (Transmute)
Transmute requires one of each single use items from the year and whatever else.
A single use item is returned to you (spent) after use
1 use per room

Its timely for VTD and not really being able to return tokens.

*Spent means spent for the game, but you still get it back for a future run.

I would suggest also we get a RARE version of the semi-lich skull...

Semi-lich jawbone...
It allows for ONE TOOTH, cannot be combined with semi-lich skull but provides +1HP and allows for an additional tooth for total of 2 HP...as a slotless rare, but not additive to "inflation", this gives the smaller players a reason to buy the abundance of 6th tooth...and make it more meaningful and sets them up to "go bigger" with the UR in time.

not sure it should embue psychic, but it would make sense as it acts as the medallion of third eye so there is precedent.

Jamie Campbell wrote: I would suggest also we get a RARE version of the semi-lich skull...

Semi-lich jawbone...
It allows for ONE TOOTH, cannot be combined with semi-lich skull but provides +1HP and allows for an additional tooth for total of 2 HP...as a slotless rare, but not additive to "inflation", this gives the smaller players a reason to buy the abundance of 6th tooth...and make it more meaningful and sets them up to "go bigger" with the UR in time.

not sure it should embue psychic, but it would make sense as it acts as the medallion of third eye so there is precedent.

Medallion of the Third Eye takes up the Neck slot (one of the most powerful slots), and all it does is imbue Psychic. I don't think it makes sense for a slotless token of the same rarity to do that and more.

I do think the 2021 set should have a Rare token that imbues Psychic, but it should be in another powerful slot. Maybe Waist or Hands (or Neck again).

Also, keep in mind that however many 6th Tooth are out there, there will likely be as large a number of 7th Tooth next year. So if there is something based on number of teeth, you may want the limit higher than 1.