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TOPIC: Time to start the 2021 Token dev process

Time to start the 2021 Token dev process 8 months 2 weeks ago #481

I really like the idea of Wizards having familiars as a Ranged Weapon option and I really like the thought of it connecting to their spellpower. We had a suggestion of a ranged weapon with damage types instead of damage wheel that provides ONLY spell damage bonuses in damage for a successful hit so I'm looking at that option.


ALL FAMILIAR ATTACKS USE THE LISTED BONUS TO SLIDES NOT THE WIZARD'S RANGED HIT BONUS

Uncommon

Imp Familiar
+4 to slide for hit chance
On hit: deals fire damage equal to Wizard's Spell Power Bonus
Wizard only

Mephit Familiar
+4 to slide for hit chance
On hit: deals cold damage equal to Wizard's Spell Power Bonus
Wizard only

Rare

Mimic Familiar (Physical/Force)
+10 to slide for hit chance
On hit: deals damage equal to Wizard's Spell Power Bonus
+2 to Wizard hit and damage while Polymorphed
Wizard only


Ultra Rare

Pseudodragon Familiar (Ranged/Frost/Shock)
+15 to slide for hit chance
On hit: deals damage equal to Wizard's Spell Power
+2 Shock Damage to Spells
1/game recast a previously expended 1st level spell
+3 to Wizard hit and damage while Polymorphed
Wizard only

From there the Familiar could actually be the Legendary path (potentially?)

Relic

Aetheric Pseudodragon Familiar (Ranged/Melee/Acid/Frost)
+18 to slide for hit chance
On hit: deals damage equal to Wizard's Spell Power
+3 Sonic damage to spells
+4 to hit and damage while Polymorphed
1/game recast a previously expended 1st lor 2nd level spell
Uses Spell Damage instead of Ranged Damage modifiers
Wizard only

Legendary

Arcanist's Will-O-Wisp (Nature/Shock/Melee/Physical/Ranged)
+21 to slide for hit chance
On hit: deals damage equal to Wizard's Spell Power
+5 Nature Damage to Spells
+6 to hit and damage while Polymorphed
2/game recast a previously expended spell
Wizard only

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Time to start the 2021 Token dev process 8 months 2 weeks ago #482

Arcanist Kolixela wrote: I really like the idea of Wizards having familiars as a Ranged Weapon option and I really like the thought of it connecting to their spellpower. We had a suggestion of a ranged weapon with damage types instead of damage wheel that provides ONLY spell damage bonuses in damage for a successful hit so I'm looking at that option.


ALL FAMILIAR ATTACKS USE THE LISTED BONUS TO SLIDES NOT THE WIZARD'S RANGED HIT BONUS

Uncommon

Imp Familiar
+4 to slide for hit chance
On hit: deals fire damage equal to Wizard's Spell Power Bonus
Wizard only

Mephit Familiar
+4 to slide for hit chance
On hit: deals cold damage equal to Wizard's Spell Power Bonus
Wizard only

Rare

Mimic Familiar (Physical/Force)
+10 to slide for hit chance
On hit: deals damage equal to Wizard's Spell Power Bonus
+2 to Wizard hit and damage while Polymorphed
Wizard only


Ultra Rare

Pseudodragon Familiar (Ranged/Frost/Shock)
+15 to slide for hit chance
On hit: deals damage equal to Wizard's Spell Power
+2 Shock Damage to Spells
1/game recast a previously expended 1st level spell
+3 to Wizard hit and damage while Polymorphed
Wizard only

From there the Familiar could actually be the Legendary path (potentially?)

Relic

Aetheric Pseudodragon Familiar (Ranged/Melee/Acid/Frost)
+18 to slide for hit chance
On hit: deals damage equal to Wizard's Spell Power
+3 Sonic damage to spells
+4 to hit and damage while Polymorphed
1/game recast a previously expended 1st lor 2nd level spell
Uses Spell Damage instead of Ranged Damage modifiers
Wizard only

Legendary

Arcanist's Will-O-Wisp (Nature/Shock/Melee/Physical/Ranged)
+21 to slide for hit chance
On hit: deals damage equal to Wizard's Spell Power
+5 Nature Damage to Spells
+6 to hit and damage while Polymorphed
2/game recast a previously expended spell
Wizard only


Assuming you are treating familiars as being equipped in the Ranged Mainhand slot, I think putting a spell bonus on this likely will lead to confusion. I suspect many people will think they can get their spell bonuses from both a staff in their melee slots as well as the familiar in their ranged slot. I know my gut reaction was that this was way too powerful until I realized you can't have both bonuses active at the same time. Treating the bonuses separately though likely means a need to restructure the party card (and likely changes to the character generators).

I think the idea is interesting and should be explored more. But I also think your to-hit bonuses are a bit high and that you're baking a bit too much into a single token. This seems especially noticeable at the UR level when compared to existing UR tokens.

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Time to start the 2021 Token dev process 8 months 2 weeks ago #483

Fiddy wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote: I really like the idea of Wizards having familiars as a Ranged Weapon option and I really like the thought of it connecting to their spellpower. We had a suggestion of a ranged weapon with damage types instead of damage wheel that provides ONLY spell damage bonuses in damage for a successful hit so I'm looking at that option.


ALL FAMILIAR ATTACKS USE THE LISTED BONUS TO SLIDES NOT THE WIZARD'S RANGED HIT BONUS

Uncommon

Imp Familiar
+4 to slide for hit chance
On hit: deals fire damage equal to Wizard's Spell Power Bonus
Wizard only

Mephit Familiar
+4 to slide for hit chance
On hit: deals cold damage equal to Wizard's Spell Power Bonus
Wizard only

Rare

Mimic Familiar (Physical/Force)
+10 to slide for hit chance
On hit: deals damage equal to Wizard's Spell Power Bonus
+2 to Wizard hit and damage while Polymorphed
Wizard only


Ultra Rare

Pseudodragon Familiar (Ranged/Frost/Shock)
+15 to slide for hit chance
On hit: deals damage equal to Wizard's Spell Power
+2 Shock Damage to Spells
1/game recast a previously expended 1st level spell
+3 to Wizard hit and damage while Polymorphed
Wizard only

From there the Familiar could actually be the Legendary path (potentially?)

Relic

Aetheric Pseudodragon Familiar (Ranged/Melee/Acid/Frost)
+18 to slide for hit chance
On hit: deals damage equal to Wizard's Spell Power
+3 Sonic damage to spells
+4 to hit and damage while Polymorphed
1/game recast a previously expended 1st lor 2nd level spell
Uses Spell Damage instead of Ranged Damage modifiers
Wizard only

Legendary

Arcanist's Will-O-Wisp (Nature/Shock/Melee/Physical/Ranged)
+21 to slide for hit chance
On hit: deals damage equal to Wizard's Spell Power
+5 Nature Damage to Spells
+6 to hit and damage while Polymorphed
2/game recast a previously expended spell
Wizard only


Assuming you are treating familiars as being equipped in the Ranged Mainhand slot, I think putting a spell bonus on this likely will lead to confusion. I suspect many people will think they can get their spell bonuses from both a staff in their melee slots as well as the familiar in their ranged slot. I know my gut reaction was that this was way too powerful until I realized you can't have both bonuses active at the same time. Treating the bonuses separately though likely means a need to restructure the party card (and likely changes to the character generators).

I think the idea is interesting and should be explored more. But I also think your to-hit bonuses are a bit high and that you're baking a bit too much into a single token. This seems especially noticeable at the UR level when compared to existing UR tokens.

Given existing token precedence, +4 and +5 to hit is a legendary weapon range. Right off the bat, then, the uncommon token listed is really a legendary token. The whole stack is vastly overpowered when compared to existing tokens, and involves no token compromises - a wizard would never consider equipping, say, a sling (a staple of DnD wizards) or even the typical ranged + hit items with even the uncommon familiar available.

Given previous discussions in this thread that the FoP was designed to be the familiar equivalent, I'm not sure a familiar token is even something that would be considered by TPTB.

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Time to start the 2021 Token dev process 8 months 2 weeks ago #484

Philip Goodman wrote: *Perks*
I like brainstorming unique perks of the class relic/legendaries. I specifically like perks that allow for player interaction and agency instead of fully passive mechanics for these class tokens such as "always on" perks. Ideally, these relic/legendary tokens should allow the player to choose do a thing, and that thing should be useful and cool.

That said, sometimes it's hard to draw the line on mechanics, tricks, or perks that take too much time in combat to perform or add too much complex interactions with other tokens, stats, or mechanics.

Ideas for Relic/Legendary perks:

Wizard:

Wand Overload

May choose to activate when using wand. Wand does (2-3)x damage to target(s), (1)x damage back to user and is immediately destroyed.

Wands may be used as free action. I would expect the token to come with bonuses to spell damage and wand damage.

Balancing adjustments include usage frequency, self damage, damage multiplier value and if wand overload results in a single shot, multiple shots or AOE explosion.



Idea initially inspired from how Wand of Magic Missiles works in 5e

Fighter:

Impale

When sliding attack may choose to *impale* enemy with weapon. Weapon is lodged in enemy and does (unmodified) weapon wheel damage each turn it remains lodged. Fighter can attack on subsequent rounds with different weapon.

Additionally, if lodged weapon is knocked out (hits the backboard?) via attack slide on subsequent turn, initial full damage of the impale attack is re-triggered. Weapon can then be retrieved by fighter and ongoing *impale* damage ceases.

Attack slide that dislodges impale still functions normally -- if the attack slide results in its own hit, the attack does it's own damage.

Balancing adjustments include whether to implement the *dislodge* damage, frequency usage, and whether to allow for multiple impales if the fighter wants the make the enemy a pincushion.



Execution of the impale mechanic might get tricky.

I like the idea of leaving a slider on the board to represent the lodged weapon. I also like the idea of targeting the puck left on the board, "driving the weapon home" or "ripping it out" potentially by any party member.

Leaving a puck on the board would involve decisions about allowing the use of unused pucks for this mechanic.

I also thought about a "bleed" mechanic where each attack from the fighter leaves a persistent damage effect that triggers the unmodified weapon damage each round, but that idea does not have as much player decision or interaction as I would like to see.


I just want to point out how severe the wizard hate is and how it can be blatantly seen here in this very specific example.

Wizard player “fun ability those players will love”: use a consumable (only class that is asked this on their legendary, making it now the economically most expensive consumable, indicating it should be the most powerful in game), then your choice for standard action is deal 8 damage no slide/save to 1 target vs 12 damage Reflex DC 15 save roll to 1 target vs 4 damage to all targets no slide/save roll. If you additionally spend an Ioun slot (a contested slot), you can modify that total damage by +2. If this legendary somehow isn’t your neck slot, then you can spend your most valuable slot to make this a free action and you need to own an out of print token you didn’t know to buy for your legendary to be good. So, legendary that has the “awesome” ability of standard action: deal 30 damage (8+2 then apply x2-3, I am even being extra generous and assuming you were ever so kind to the wizards and allow the Fluorite Cube to get multiplied too, if you did not, please correct me that you actually want the wizard to deal even less damage) and spend a consumable. *Maybe* you are lucky and this actually costs your free action instead, but expect it to cost your standard action. Somehow, that is not the power scale I expected from a legendary.

Fighter “fun ability”: let’s assume the weapon is Welfor’s sword instead of Averon’s Deathcleaver for a lower damage total. Every round after the first, deal a free 10.5 average damage as a non-action that still leaves you your free action AND standard action. (Your standard action is an attack slide with enough modifiers and a basic competency in sliding it is almost guaranteed you hit.) Then, when you stop getting your non-action 10.5 damage, you deal a bonus 10.5 + modifiers damage that one round instead and can restart the chain by impaling the round you dislodge (the damage gets even more insane if every single attack can impale and you stack impales, meaning every round the monster is alive, you deal 10.5N damage where N is rounds minus 1 on top of your normal attack for that round). My quick calculations are the Fighter getting to +43 damage. So, every round 10.5 damage as a non-action and occasionally triggering 53.5 damage instead of 10.5 damage on some rounds, maybe the 10.5 can even be multiplied with multiple simultaneous impales, which can each explode as a free 53.5 instead. The most restrictive worst version of this is limit one impale at a time and cannot impale as an action when an impale is already in the monster, so then every other round you deal a bonus 53.5 damage as a non-action.

Please compare the power scale of your suggestions and explain to me how that is fun for both of them.
I play Wizard.

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Time to start the 2021 Token dev process 8 months 2 weeks ago #485

Take a chill pill.

He specifically called out perks. AKA fun extras.

Ralson's already establishes a precedent for fun perks that include consumables.
"IMHO we like to solve problems here on the forums that are only perceived problems due to a myopic view." -Bob Chasan
My Elemental build
My trade list
Do you have Onyx polymorph Potions?

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Time to start the 2021 Token dev process 8 months 2 weeks ago #486

Endgame wrote:

Fiddy wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote: I really like the idea of Wizards having familiars as a Ranged Weapon option and I really like the thought of it connecting to their spellpower. We had a suggestion of a ranged weapon with damage types instead of damage wheel that provides ONLY spell damage bonuses in damage for a successful hit so I'm looking at that option.


ALL FAMILIAR ATTACKS USE THE LISTED BONUS TO SLIDES NOT THE WIZARD'S RANGED HIT BONUS

Uncommon

Imp Familiar
+4 to slide for hit chance
On hit: deals fire damage equal to Wizard's Spell Power Bonus
Wizard only

Mephit Familiar
+4 to slide for hit chance
On hit: deals cold damage equal to Wizard's Spell Power Bonus
Wizard only

Rare

Mimic Familiar (Physical/Force)
+10 to slide for hit chance
On hit: deals damage equal to Wizard's Spell Power Bonus
+2 to Wizard hit and damage while Polymorphed
Wizard only


Ultra Rare

Pseudodragon Familiar (Ranged/Frost/Shock)
+15 to slide for hit chance
On hit: deals damage equal to Wizard's Spell Power
+2 Shock Damage to Spells
1/game recast a previously expended 1st level spell
+3 to Wizard hit and damage while Polymorphed
Wizard only

From there the Familiar could actually be the Legendary path (potentially?)

Relic

Aetheric Pseudodragon Familiar (Ranged/Melee/Acid/Frost)
+18 to slide for hit chance
On hit: deals damage equal to Wizard's Spell Power
+3 Sonic damage to spells
+4 to hit and damage while Polymorphed
1/game recast a previously expended 1st lor 2nd level spell
Uses Spell Damage instead of Ranged Damage modifiers
Wizard only

Legendary

Arcanist's Will-O-Wisp (Nature/Shock/Melee/Physical/Ranged)
+21 to slide for hit chance
On hit: deals damage equal to Wizard's Spell Power
+5 Nature Damage to Spells
+6 to hit and damage while Polymorphed
2/game recast a previously expended spell
Wizard only


Assuming you are treating familiars as being equipped in the Ranged Mainhand slot, I think putting a spell bonus on this likely will lead to confusion. I suspect many people will think they can get their spell bonuses from both a staff in their melee slots as well as the familiar in their ranged slot. I know my gut reaction was that this was way too powerful until I realized you can't have both bonuses active at the same time. Treating the bonuses separately though likely means a need to restructure the party card (and likely changes to the character generators).

I think the idea is interesting and should be explored more. But I also think your to-hit bonuses are a bit high and that you're baking a bit too much into a single token. This seems especially noticeable at the UR level when compared to existing UR tokens.

Given existing token precedence, +4 and +5 to hit is a legendary weapon range. Right off the bat, then, the uncommon token listed is really a legendary token. The whole stack is vastly overpowered when compared to existing tokens, and involves no token compromises - a wizard would never consider equipping, say, a sling (a staple of DnD wizards) or even the typical ranged + hit items with even the uncommon familiar available.

Given previous discussions in this thread that the FoP was designed to be the familiar equivalent, I'm not sure a familiar token is even something that would be considered by TPTB.


If you check the token design it states the familiar has it's own sliding bonus that does not use the Wizard's stat line at all so these numbers are chosen to mark rough bonuses at given rarity levels

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Time to start the 2021 Token dev process 8 months 2 weeks ago #487

I owe nothing as an explanation. How you have fun, is up to you, whether it is BIG DAMAGE or interesting mechanics, etc. How people decide to interpret suggestions or react to hypothetical numbers for new perk ideas is not my concern.

"Wizard hate" is a straw man argument.

If anything, should be more like "Cleric hate" as I didn't even mention a cleric idea since I can't think of one. For those clerics that I have offended, apologies :blink:

I had previously stated these were perk ideas designed to be interactive and cool. I laid out balancing options ideas for tuning it appropriately should the core idea(s) be adopted.

I also want to state something that should be abundantly clear:
The class relic/legendary should not be a place to balance a class!

If wands suck, make better wands, change how they work or increase the available bonuses to them across the token pool. If wizards suck, change how they work I.E. give them a spam-able cantrip or other ranged non-spell but-does-spell-damage option (mentioned as a familiar) baseline, if appropriate.

Do not lock this balance nonsense behind a relic/legendary token that only a few people are going to get. Putting an inappropriately large amount of power behind a class relic/legendary will make things WAY worse for those that don't have access to it, and PREVENT future balancing in favor of the class.

I honestly loathe number talk in lieu of general idea talk before we have any idea of the direction of TPTB. I usually do not like filling in the gaps of an idea, as it seems TPTB like to be creative in their own way an idea is implemented. But I guess we are here anyway so here we go...

I already listed these several points which seem to have been missed as side notes for the perk ideas I mentioned:

Wand Overload

  • Wands may be used as free action (like Medallion of Mystic Mouth ). I would expect the token to come with bonuses to spell damage and wand damage.
  • Balancing adjustments include usage frequency, self damage, damage multiplier value and if wand overload results in a single shot, multiple shots or AOE explosion.
And:

Impale

  • Balancing adjustments include whether to implement the *dislodge* damage, frequency usage, and whether to allow for multiple impales if the fighter wants the make the enemy a pincushion.

Let me connect some additional dots here:

Wand Overload
  • Token spell damage and wand damage would be the same, probably 7 or higher based on other legendaries.
  • 2x damage on the wand overload if the wand overload shot multiple times, benefiting from wand damage more than once and allowed for multi-target selection. This is complicated and more of a headache for DMs/players. Not the way I would go with it, but the idea is there.
  • 3x (sure, maybe even 4x) damage would be more appropriate if the wand overload shot a single blast.
  • Conservative wand consumable use would probably look like
  1. First round: free action -> normal wand
  2. Second round: free action -> normal wand
  3. Third round: free action -> wand overload (wand is gone at end of combat anyway).
  • Aggressive wand consumable use would probably look like
  1. Every single round: free action -> overload wand. Repeat.

Impale
  • Tokens are designed around combats being 3-4 rounds.We would likely see an average persistent impale damage of 20-30, and 10-20 from a 2nd impale from the next round. I do not believe it to be an issue if this mechanic shines extra bright in Grind, True Raid, or X-gorgon encounters. We have also seen precedence for those encounters invalidating or reducing the effect of certain tokens should they be an issue.
  • If the dislodge mechanic is removed, the ability to impale multiple times would be necessary to come close to the balance of the Barbarian's legendary power.

Additional thoughts for starter UR for the Wand Overload relic/legendary:

So-And-So's Runed Wand:
Bard, Cleric, Druid, & Wizards

Does 10 (12 if Wizard) pts of cold, fire, or shock damage to target.
*Unbreakable*
(Token is NOT turned in at the end of combat or destroyed by Wand Overload, though it cannot be used again after Wand Overload until next combat)
Playing True Dungeon since 2012.

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Last edit: by Philip Goodman.

Time to start the 2021 Token dev process 8 months 2 weeks ago #488

Fiddy wrote: Assuming you are treating familiars as being equipped in the Ranged Mainhand slot, I think putting a spell bonus on this likely will lead to confusion. I suspect many people will think they can get their spell bonuses from both a staff in their melee slots as well as the familiar in their ranged slot. I know my gut reaction was that this was way too powerful until I realized you can't have both bonuses active at the same time. Treating the bonuses separately though likely means a need to restructure the party card (and likely changes to the character generators).

I think the idea is interesting and should be explored more. But I also think your to-hit bonuses are a bit high and that you're baking a bit too much into a single token. This seems especially noticeable at the UR level when compared to existing UR tokens.


A good observation. Given the token is a familiar it wouldn't make sense to have it giving polymorph bonuses, since it's not a standard weapon to be polymorphed in.

I'll look at the to hit bonuses on the familiar. I do think it's pretty in line with the +to hit of other DPS classes at equivalent levels but that may be a bit off.

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Time to start the 2021 Token dev process 8 months 2 weeks ago #489

Taking another pass at the Familiar idea

Reminder - ALL FAMILIAR ATTACKS USE THE LISTED BONUS TO SLIDES NOT THE WIZARD'S RANGED HIT BONUS

Uncommon

Imp Familiar
STATIC +4 to slide for hit chance
On hit: deals fire damage equal to Wizard's Spell Power Bonus
Wizard only

Mephit Familiar
STATIC +4 to slide for hit chance
On hit: deals cold damage equal to Wizard's Spell Power Bonus
Wizard only

Rare

Mimic Familiar (Damage Wheel - Physical/Force)
STATIC +9 to slide for hit chance
On hit: deals damage equal to Wizard's Spell Power Bonus
Wizard only


Ultra Rare

Pseudodragon Familiar (Damage Wheel - Ranged/Frost/Shock)
Static +13 to slide for hit chance
On hit: deals damage equal to Wizard's Spell Power
1/game recast a previously expended 1st level spell
Wizard only

Relic

Aetheric Pseudodragon Familiar (Damage Wheel - Ranged/Melee/Acid/Frost)
STATIC +16 to slide for hit chance
On hit: deals damage equal to Wizard's Spell Power
1/game recast a previously expended 1st or 2nd level spell
Wizard only

Legendary

Arcanist's Will-O-Wisp (Damage Wheel - Nature/Shock/Melee/Physical/Ranged)
STATIC +19 to slide for hit chance
On hit: deals damage equal to Wizard's Spell Power
2/game recast a previously expended spell
Wizard only

Thoughts?

Reminder that the STATIC + to hit in this instance is all inclusive, it gains no bonuses from the Wizard's equipment but would gain bardsong bonuses for weapon attacks.

This could just as easily be set as an Ioun Stone instead of a Ranged Weapon as that somewhat suits the design of Ioun Stones in early versions of Dungeons and Dragons.

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Time to start the 2021 Token dev process 8 months 2 weeks ago #490

Philip Goodman wrote: I owe nothing as an explanation. How you have fun, is up to you, whether it is BIG DAMAGE or interesting mechanics, etc. How people decide to interpret suggestions or react to hypothetical numbers for new perk ideas is not my concern.

"Wizard hate" is a straw man argument.

If anything, should be more like "Cleric hate" as I didn't even mention a cleric idea since I can't think of one. For those clerics that I have offended, apologies :blink:

I had previously stated these were perk ideas designed to be interactive and cool. I laid out balancing options ideas for tuning it appropriately should the core idea(s) be adopted.

I also want to state something that should be abundantly clear:
The class relic/legendary should not be a place to balance a class!

If wands suck, make better wands, change how they work or increase the available bonuses to them across the token pool. If wizards suck, change how they work I.E. give them a spam-able cantrip or other ranged non-spell but-does-spell-damage option (mentioned as a familiar) baseline, if appropriate.

Do not lock this balance nonsense behind a relic/legendary token that only a few people are going to get. Putting an inappropriately large amount of power behind a class relic/legendary will make things WAY worse for those that don't have access to it, and PREVENT future balancing in favor of the class.

I honestly loathe number talk in lieu of general idea talk before we have any idea of the direction of TPTB. I usually do not like filling in the gaps of an idea, as it seems TPTB like to be creative in their own way an idea is implemented. But I guess we are here anyway so here we go...


I already listed these several points which seem to have been missed as side notes for the perk ideas I mentioned:

Wand Overload

  • Wands may be used as free action (like Medallion of Mystic Mouth ). I would expect the token to come with bonuses to spell damage and wand damage.
  • Balancing adjustments include usage frequency, self damage, damage multiplier value and if wand overload results in a single shot, multiple shots or AOE explosion.
And:

Impale

  • Balancing adjustments include whether to implement the *dislodge* damage, frequency usage, and whether to allow for multiple impales if the fighter wants the make the enemy a pincushion.

Let me connect some additional dots here:

Wand Overload
  • Token spell damage and wand damage would be the same, probably 7 or higher based on other legendaries.
  • 2x damage on the wand overload if the wand overload shot multiple times, benefiting from wand damage more than once and allowed for multi-target selection. This is complicated and more of a headache for DMs/players. Not the way I would go with it, but the idea is there.
  • 3x (sure, maybe even 4x) damage would be more appropriate if the wand overload shot a single blast.
  • Conservative wand consumable use would probably look like
  1. First round: free action -> normal wand
  2. Second round: free action -> normal wand
  3. Third round: free action -> wand overload (wand is gone at end of combat anyway).
  • Aggressive wand consumable use would probably look like
  1. Every single round: free action -> overload wand. Repeat.

Impale
  • Tokens are designed around combats being 3-4 rounds.We would likely see an average persistent impale damage of 20-30, and 10-20 from a 2nd impale from the next round. I do not believe it to be an issue if this mechanic shines extra bright in Grind, True Raid, or X-gorgon encounters. We have also seen precedence for those encounters invalidating or reducing the effect of certain tokens should they be an issue.
  • If the dislodge mechanic is removed, the ability to impale multiple times would be necessary to come close to the balance of the Barbarian's legendary power.

Additional thoughts for starter UR for the Wand Overload relic/legendary:

So-And-So's Runed Wand:
Bard, Cleric, Druid, & Wizards

Does 10 (12 if Wizard) pts of cold, fire, or shock damage to target.
*Unbreakable*
(Token is NOT turned in at the end of combat or destroyed by Wand Overload, though it cannot be used again after Wand Overload until next combat)


There are definitely good points here. And I like the idea of an unbreakable wand as that's one of the core reasons I dislike wands in general.

As a Wizard main player I would be against having the class legendary path being focused on wand or scroll use given how little they are used currently, doubly so if the Legendary token goes in the neck slot and removes the Mystic Mouth Medallion.

The UR wand mentioned I would be likely to grab in a trade just to have something as an option.

A relic upgrade path focusing on Wands would be completely ignored by me. I'd assume you'd find similar sentiments from other Wizard mains.

Wand Overload sounds like a cool perk for the human or elf wizard on class redesign if that was wanted, a way to make the versions a bit more unique from eachother. Maybe instead of deals x2 damage it triggers the wand twice when using a wand and can trigger a wand 4 times as a standard action 1/combat (or something similar) that allows for non damage wands to also gain effect, for the small number of those that exist.

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Time to start the 2021 Token dev process 8 months 2 weeks ago #491

Not in favor of scroll times x or wand times x effects. Not in favor of familiar being integrated into legendary and relic tokens.

I like the idea of being able to use a slide attack at range at +5 plus range attack bonus of wizard with the damage wheel being added and using damage types on the damage wheel. You would get spell bonus damage of the type aimed at dot on the combat board. This would be a standard action. This would allow a wizard to contribute after spells run out and remain consistent with the bonus plus of other legendaries.

A non-legendary, non-relic familiar token for something akin to polymorphing into familiar and attacking etc. similar to potions of polymorph that can being as a standard action.

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Last edit: by edwin.

Time to start the 2021 Token dev process 8 months 2 weeks ago #492

Philip Goodman wrote: I also want to state something that should be abundantly clear:
The class relic/legendary should not be a place to balance a class!


But by the same token, they surely should not be a place to introduce massive imbalance either:

The Monk Legendary grants +7 damage on 2 pucks, crit on 19 the ability to attack with melee weapons at range

The Barbarian Legendary grants +10 damage with 2 handers, and additional +4/+6 in a 2nd room from Rage, and a called shot that doubles damage if it hits 2/game

The Rogue Legendary Grants reduces the cost of Sneak Attack from 2 standard actions to 1, allows a 2nd SA per room (+15 or 20 damage 1/room), and expands SA crit range to 17-20.

The Bard Legendary Effectively grants an additional standard action and as many free actions are necessary to get your hands holding the correct stuff to execute that action when performing bardsong, +2/+2 for the party, and allows a reroll of a failed save, and is effectively slotless.

The Paladin Legendary grants +5 to hit, a stacking +1 to number of players guarded 1/game, 15 points of healing, a twice per game party wide save bonus, auto-kills evil outsiders on a slid 20, and is effectively slotless.

Wizards should not be chastised for desiring a legendary token that includes elements such as:
* large party card bonuses to damage in their preferred attack mode
* unprecedented bonuses to actions tied to the class
* effectively granting additional standard actions
* effectively slotless

For those of you with feelings about the Wizard Legendary, I encourage you to Please put your preferences in the informal poll by picking a column, labeling it with your name, and filling in the options:

docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1L_b-2cnyVo3Qfx0y0L4pmz5UFBBjDBEEaf805H9VzcE/edit#gid=0


Also consider reading/contributing to the prior thread on this topic at:

truedungeon.com/forum?view=topic&catid=570&id=249841

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Last edit: by Matthew Hayward.
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