TOPIC: Time to start the 2021 Token dev process

Question on familiar usage - would you be restricted from casting a spell, using a wand or using a scroll if you slid the familiar?

edwin wrote: Question on familiar usage - would you be restricted from casting a spell, using a wand or using a scroll if you slid the familiar?

Yes, Controlling the familiar would take a standard action same as casting a spell or using a scroll/wand or normal attack.

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

Singsalot wrote: f) maybe you use it in the 2nd battle, after using your best spell, totally boosted, and then bring it back for the last battle while your team is wrapping up - I haven't seen a TON of Nightmare/Epic fights, but in my experience, the Wizard's best spell is 2x-4x better than anything a non-caster can bring.

That's unfortunately not true. Even at their best +damage the Wizards best spell doesn't 4x the damage of other damage dealers who are also fully equipped.

It's definitely useful, just not that high.

Wizards do not deal 2-4x the damage of other similarly geared classes, even with their best spells.

A BiS wizard can alpha strike once per dungeon four around 130, and a normal round will be more like 60.

A BiS Druid can have pretty much the exact same alpha strike as a Wizard once per dungeon with Spell Surge.

A BiS Barbarian can hit for 170-230 on a crit, and a normal hit will be around 70.

A BiS Monk/Ranger can hit for 210 on a double crit, and on normal hits will be around 50-155 depending on number of hits/crits scored. Remember, Rangers can dual wield Thor's which crits on a 18+.



Wizard:

A BiS Wizard will have something like a +35 spell bonus. Using Ring of Spell Storing, Mad Evoker's Charm, and being level 5 a BiS Wizard can alpha strike for something like:

Standard action: 20 (L3 spell)x2 (MeC) + 35 (spell Bonus)
Free action: 20 (L3 spell from RoSS) + 35 (spell Bonus)

For a grand total of 130 damage in 1 round.

Outside of that one round per dungeon, a typical round looks much more like:
Standard action: 11 (magic missile)*2(MeC) + 35 (spell Bonus)

For 57 per round.

Barbarian

A BiS Barbarian can get to +60 melee damage, and if they slide a crit on their first slide with a +2 Death Flail and greater rage will do:
3*(12+60+6) = 236 damage

For rounds past the first, they can switch to +5 Deathcleaver for:
Crit damage: 2x(21+60+6 from rage) = 174
Regular damage: ~70

Twice per game Barbarians get to declare Fury and turn the next slide into a crit if it hits.

Monk/Ranger

A BiS Monk or Ranger can get to +40 melee damage on each of two pucks, for a result of:
Double Crit: 2*2*(13+40) = 212
Crit+hit: 2*(13+40) + (10.5+40) = 156.5
Double hit: 2*(10.5+40) = 101
Single hit: 10.5+40 = 50.5

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

Singsalot wrote: f) maybe you use it in the 2nd battle, after using your best spell, totally boosted, and then bring it back for the last battle while your team is wrapping up - I haven't seen a TON of Nightmare/Epic fights, but in my experience, the Wizard's best spell is 2x-4x better than anything a non-caster can bring.

That's unfortunately not true. Even at their best +damage the Wizards best spell doesn't 4x the damage of other damage dealers who are also fully equipped.

It's definitely useful, just not that high.

Wizards do not deal 2-4x the damage of other similarly geared classes, even with their best spells.

A BiS wizard can alpha strike once per dungeon four around 130, and a normal round will be more like 60.

A BiS Druid can have pretty much the exact same alpha strike as a Wizard once per dungeon with Spell Surge.

A BiS Barbarian can hit for 170-230 on a crit, and a normal hit will be around 70.

A BiS Monk/Ranger can hit for 210 on a double crit, and on normal hits will be around 50-155 depending on number of hits/crits scored. Remember, Rangers can dual wield Thor's which crits on a 18+.



Wizard:

A BiS Wizard will have something like a +35 spell bonus. Using Ring of Spell Storing, Mad Evoker's Charm, and being level 5 a BiS Wizard can alpha strike for something like:

Standard action: 20 (L3 spell)x2 (MeC) + 35 (spell Bonus)
Free action: 20 (L3 spell from RoSS) + 35 (spell Bonus)

For a grand total of 130 damage in 1 round.

Outside of that one round per dungeon, a typical round looks much more like:
Standard action: 11 (magic missile)*2(MeC) + 35 (spell Bonus)

For 57 per round.

Barbarian

A BiS Barbarian can get to +60 melee damage, and if they slide a crit on their first slide with a +2 Death Flail and greater rage will do:
3*(12+60+6) = 236 damage

For rounds past the first, they can switch to +5 Deathcleaver for:
Crit damage: 2x(21+60+6 from rage) = 174
Regular damage: ~70

Twice per game Barbarians get to declare Fury and turn the next slide into a crit if it hits.

Monk/Ranger

A BiS Monk or Ranger can get to +40 melee damage on each of two pucks, for a result of:
Double Crit: 2*2*(13+40) = 212
Crit+hit: 2*(13+40) + (10.5+40) = 156.5
Double hit: 2*(10.5+40) = 101
Single hit: 10.5+40 = 50.5

Thank you Matt. I am glad to have someone else posting numbers this go around. I've taken my fair share of attacks over the years.

Wizards are always maligned by those who can’t understand what we do or are afraid of the mystical magical forces we control.

When you examine the science behind it, Wizards can hold their own but in no WAY match those that bash and slash.

*Perks*
I like brainstorming unique perks of the class relic/legendaries. I specifically like perks that allow for player interaction and agency instead of fully passive mechanics for these class tokens such as "always on" perks. Ideally, these relic/legendary tokens should allow the player to choose do a thing, and that thing should be useful and cool.

That said, sometimes it's hard to draw the line on mechanics, tricks, or perks that take too much time in combat to perform or add too much complex interactions with other tokens, stats, or mechanics.

Ideas for Relic/Legendary perks:

Wizard:

Wand Overload

May choose to activate when using wand. Wand does (2-3)x damage to target(s), (1)x damage back to user and is immediately destroyed.

Wands may be used as free action. I would expect the token to come with bonuses to spell damage and wand damage.

Balancing adjustments include usage frequency, self damage, damage multiplier value and if wand overload results in a single shot, multiple shots or AOE explosion.

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Idea initially inspired from how Wand of Magic Missiles works in 5e

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Fighter:

Impale

When sliding attack may choose to *impale* enemy with weapon. Weapon is lodged in enemy and does (unmodified) weapon wheel damage each turn it remains lodged. Fighter can attack on subsequent rounds with different weapon.

Additionally, if lodged weapon is knocked out (hits the backboard?) via attack slide on subsequent turn, initial full damage of the impale attack is re-triggered. Weapon can then be retrieved by fighter and ongoing *impale* damage ceases.

Attack slide that dislodges impale still functions normally -- if the attack slide results in its own hit, the attack does it's own damage.

Balancing adjustments include whether to implement the *dislodge* damage, frequency usage, and whether to allow for multiple impales if the fighter wants the make the enemy a pincushion.

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Execution of the impale mechanic might get tricky.

I like the idea of leaving a slider on the board to represent the lodged weapon. I also like the idea of targeting the puck left on the board, "driving the weapon home" or "ripping it out" potentially by any party member.

Leaving a puck on the board would involve decisions about allowing the use of unused pucks for this mechanic.

I also thought about a "bleed" mechanic where each attack from the fighter leaves a persistent damage effect that triggers the unmodified weapon damage each round, but that idea does not have as much player decision or interaction as I would like to see.

I like the impale idea but keaving extra pucks on the board is just like having extra flanks from the rogue and would require more fighter pucks.

Philip Goodman wrote: Ideas for Relic/Legendary perks:

Wizard:

Wand Overload

May choose to activate when using wand. Wand does (2-3)x damage to target(s), (1)x damage back to user and is immediately destroyed.

Wands may be used as free action. I would expect the token to come with bonuses to spell damage and wand damage.

Balancing adjustments include usage frequency, self damage, damage multiplier value and if wand overload results in a single shot, multiple shots or AOE explosion.

---

Idea initially inspired from how Wand of Magic Missiles works in 5e

Unfortunately wands are supremely underpowered in TD to the point of being nigh useless. I would not expect any Wizard main player to support any part of the Relic/Legendary being dedicated to wand and/or scroll useage, the damage loss of using one over even a single cantrip is far too extreme for them to see use at the Relic/Legendary level

Adam Guay wrote: I like the impale idea but keaving extra pucks on the board is just like having extra flanks from the rogue and would require more fighter pucks.

Unfortunately I agree here. This would necessitate at least one additional fighter slider at every table and that's not not doable for a single token. Not to mention it could potentially end up with 3 or 4 impaled weapons cluttering the board and would require the DM actively AVOID moving a puck when pulling all pucks in at the end of the round. Just not feasible unfortunately.

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

Philip Goodman wrote: Ideas for Relic/Legendary perks:

Wizard:

Wand Overload

May choose to activate when using wand. Wand does (2-3)x damage to target(s), (1)x damage back to user and is immediately destroyed.

Wands may be used as free action. I would expect the token to come with bonuses to spell damage and wand damage.

Balancing adjustments include usage frequency, self damage, damage multiplier value and if wand overload results in a single shot, multiple shots or AOE explosion.

---

Idea initially inspired from how Wand of Magic Missiles works in 5e

Unfortunately wands are supremely underpowered in TD to the point of being nigh useless. I would not expect any Wizard main player to support any part of the Relic/Legendary being dedicated to wand and/or scroll useage, the damage loss of using one over even a single cantrip is far too extreme for them to see use at the Relic/Legendary level

I could possible see scroll usage if it allowed a free scroll usage or useage of any scroll similar to the Ranger Legendary. Otherwise definitely not interested in any power based on scroll, wand or MEC.

edwin wrote: I could possible see scroll usage if it allowed a free scroll usage or useage of any scroll similar to the Ranger Legendary. Otherwise definitely not interested in any power based on scroll, wand or MEC.

I will rally against any suggestion that includes Scroll or Wand adamantly. We should not tie the class relic/legendary to consumable items.

I wouldn't have anything against an upgraded MEC ability that doubled total damage including spell damage bonuses but outside of that I'd agree. It shouldn't be linked to a single existing class UR token that's heavily out of print. Plus the Legendary Robes already address the INT requirement for the MEC.

My recommendation for the cleric perk / ability is a mass heal spell - heal all party members 5(?) points..

Wizard could get spell surge (as druid).

Fighter would have to be something that works for both fighters, and I don’t have a great idea here.