TOPIC: FINAL NOTES & IMAGES 2020

Endgame wrote:

archmage78 wrote: So, I know that there is a push and pull to tokens but these changes seemed drastic. Two tokens in particular got turned from very useful to no one will ever use and I am a bit confused as to why.

1st the key. 2 points of healing is not over powered as a slotlless item. It is just a nice item in the vein of many other minor healing slotless items. Now as a charm it is massively under-powered. I can sum up everyone's comments as, oh, I like that it is now sloted but I won't be getting one. This would be weak as a Rare charm much less an UR. I beg that it either gets a massive power bump like say 10 or 12 bonus healing from spells, or goes back to slotless. It is just so unusable as is.
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+10 is an insanely broken amount of healing. At just +2 the key can account for over 300 extra hp over the course of the adventure. At +10, that would yield over 1500hp. I wouldn't increase it past +3 in the essentially wide open charm slot (10 charm builds are now possible!), but +2 is just fine. Maybe tack in scrolls as suggested earlier in the thread.

Slotless items are always pure power creep, and I'm glad the key was put in a slot now before printing instead of having to be nerfed later.

For this charm to equal 300 extra healing, every player must have it equipped and every player must be healed 15 times by spells. That math doesn't work.

You get +2 healing from a spell received. That means that you get +2 healing not 300. You seem to be treating this as it adds HP like the charm of synergy. This isn't the case. First, there are 10 players and you are assuming that all 10 are going to equip this very weak charm when it is clear that everyone on this thread understands that it is very weak and has already pointed out that they are not going to be doing so.

There are 10 players so mathematically speaking rarely does everyone get damaged. It is a very rare situation that the healer is healing the whole group. In fact, in 13 years of playing, I have had it happen perhaps 2 times total. Again, unlike the synergy that adds HP, this is a situational addition. There are only so many spells in the game as only the Cleric and Druid have them....and the 5th level Ranger.

Now, if you just count me, I have been healed by a spell 3 times in the past 4 Gen Cons. That means, in 4 years of playing, I would have received from this slotted charm, 6 HP in extra healing. In order to hit that 300 number, every player must be healed with every spell that the 2 healers have and that will never happen unless Jeff adds 7 more rooms.

Just listen to everyone chiming in on how they won't be buying this as a Charm. I can guarantee that any charm that adds to my chances to hit and my damage are far better than a charm that might heal me 2 extra from the 1 spell I need.

I mean, I haven't seen a single person using Wils Dragonheart charm in years and that gives a guaranteed 4 HP to a person's max. Why they don't use it is because it is so weak. And the Key is now weaker than this.

And finally, the Greater Alchemists pouch and The Scroll tube already add 2 to the healing of eaten healing and scroll healing and they are slotless items. I own both and have never had the occasion to use them.

Endgame wrote:

jedibcg wrote:

Endgame wrote:

archmage78 wrote: So, I know that there is a push and pull to tokens but these changes seemed drastic. Two tokens in particular got turned from very useful to no one will ever use and I am a bit confused as to why.

1st the key. 2 points of healing is not over powered as a slotlless item. It is just a nice item in the vein of many other minor healing slotless items. Now as a charm it is massively under-powered. I can sum up everyone's comments as, oh, I like that it is now sloted but I won't be getting one. This would be weak as a Rare charm much less an UR. I beg that it either gets a massive power bump like say 10 or 12 bonus healing from spells, or goes back to slotless. It is just so unusable as is.
.

+10 is an insanely broken amount of healing. At just +2 the key can account for over 300 extra hp over the course of the adventure. At +10, that would yield over 1500hp. I wouldn't increase it past +3 in the essentially wide open charm slot (10 charm builds are now possible!), but +2 is just fine. Maybe tack in scrolls as suggested earlier in the thread.

Slotless items are always pure power creep, and I'm glad the key was put in a slot now before printing instead of having to be nerfed later.

a key at +2 is 300? or 10 keys are. there is a big difference there.

Good point. If everyone has a key its that high.

Edit

Count it the same way you would charm of synergy. If you see charm of synergy as 1 hp, count the key as a single +2 to heal.

I went from wanting the key as slotless (not because of some OP math of using lens and everyone having keys) because the 2 points was a nice little bonus, to absolutely not wanting it as a charm. As a charm, even with expanders, I don't see myself equipping it ever. High end charm slots tend to be at a premium for space, so I don't know if this would ever make the grade as a charm.

At the high end: Charm of Avarice, Charm of Awakened Synergy, Charm of Good Fortune, Charm of Shadow Shot, Charm of Spell Swapping, Charm of Treasure Boosting, Draco-Lich Charm, Greater Onyx Charm, Mad Evoker's Charm, Questor's, etc all would take precidence depending on build, and I don't know if it would ever find a seat on the charm bus... even with expanders.

Now that all said... I like what it is for the book reference, but it just doesn't feel like an UR in the final iteration.

I think when we discuss the might of the '300 points of extra healing' we forget that healing is done either in inches, or miles. For a new player, a single key is neat, but will largely not matter. The party won't have a 10 stack of keys, so getting one in their starter pack will mean their cleric will heal them for 3 as opposed to 1.

For the nightmare builds who would have previously had 10 keys, their cleric/druid is likely healing for +18 or more and where everyone has far deeper HP pools, and the healing is a lot less egregious.

I just didn't see it as an issue as a slotless, provided it didn't work on consumables/scrolls and was only limited to spells.

In the end though... not every token will be a grand slam. Overall, 2020 shaped up to be one hell of a set overall, with multiple expanders/conversion slots, strong weapons, interesting spellcaster items, and some really, really neat niche items.

Charm of Treasure Boosting is NOT a high end charm....just saying.

jedibcg wrote: Charm of Treasure Boosting is NOT a high end charm....just saying.

I would be willing to bet that the Charm of Treasure Boosting will see a lot more play then an UR Charm that adds 2 to the healing a player receives from a spell.

I wanted to point out a handful of things at the rare level which seem off due to changes in this iteration:

+2 Shuriken
I'm excited to see a rare shuriken back in the set, but this feels like it will be overly strong. Like others have mentioned it seems like it needs to have the "Fighters, Monk & Rogue" class restriction put back on it like all of the other shurikens . Having it printed with a +2 to hit seems really strong (especially with Enchanter's Whetstone), and it is also odd to see it in the same set as the Mighty Sling given they serve similar (but distinct) purposes.
Suggestions to fix: Either take it back down to +1 (and the uncommon back to Masterwork) or remove the to-hit bonus add in some elemental damage like we've seen in the past (e.g. Shuriken of Shock or Shuriken of Venom ).

Ioun Stone Tourmaline Tear
I was really happy with this token through the development process until the last round. I'm not against changing it slightly, but I feel the new wording just complicates it. If this was one of the small number of rares a very new player is exposed to I'm not sure its purpose would be completely clear due to the "to hit spell" language. I've never heard a DM say the monster used a "to hit" spell, and it feels likely that the clarification would be missed in the heat of the moment or would slow things down if people have to ask. This is also something which is up to the player to remember to track so it seems prudent to make it simpler.
Suggestions to fix: Either restore it to the wording from previous iterations so it is "+1 AC & -1 damage from ranged attacks (including spells)" or remove the secondary effect and just leave it at "+1 AC". I originally thought about suggesting replacing the damage reduction with something like "+1 HP" or "+1 to ___ saves" but both of those options felt like they encroached on other rare tokens (e.g. Tyr's Bracers or this year's Bracers of the Toad).

Bead of Bending
This is another token which feels like it was hit too quickly and now its power level directly conflicts with another token in the same set. See my description of the IS Tourmaline Tear above for a suggestion about how the current wording just complicates things since the same wording problem exists here, though I'm glad to see the wording is standardized across them. In addition, this token's effect is the same as the IS Tourmaline Tear right now except the IS also gets +1 AC. Given we only have one bead slot (for now anyways), it seems off that the IS gives more power since we can have 5 (or 7/9 at higher tiers) of them.
Suggestions to fix: Put this back to a -2 damage effect or change it to be something like "+2 AC against ranged attacks".

I also have a few suggestions for the UR as well based on changes in the last round:

Ring of the Drake
I'm fine with losing spell damage on this token but preserving the ranged damage bonus feels like it complicates things given the "to hit" spell interaction.
Suggestion to fix: Make the token read "+2 Fire damage to melee & thrown weapons. Shurikens gain Returning effect."

Ioun Stone Banshee Prism
Same reasoning above applies for this token as well with the interaction around "to hit spells".
Suggestion to fix: Make the token read "+2 Sonic damage to attacks with physical projectiles". Not sure this suggestion holds up well, but I was attempting to use a different term to describe "ranged attacks" excluding spells entirely.

Arcane Belt
If we drop spell damage from the Ring of the Drake, it seems reasonable to drop melee damage from this token. Suggestions to fix: Make the token read "+2 to damage with Ranged attacks (including spells); +2 to healing Spells you cast" or change the name to "Arcane Belt of Focus" and change the effect slightly to "+2 to healing, damage spells & polymorph damage".

If the Arcane Belt changes to be a belt of focus these three tokens together would form a nice triangle this year with a +2 damage bonus across every attack type. With my suggestion above thrown weapons would be the only type to go above this with a +4 damage bonus, but it is still less than the +6 it is getting now. I also like this because it would leave a pure +2 damage with spells ioun stone open for next year to round out that "set".

This post is longer than I expected and feel free to take it, leave it or pull chunks out where it makes sense.

James Bennett wrote: I wanted to point out a handful of things at the rare level which seem off due to changes in this iteration:

+2 Shuriken
I'm excited to see a rare shuriken back in the set, but this feels like it will be overly strong. Like others have mentioned it seems like it needs to have the "Fighters, Monk & Rogue" class restriction put back on it like all of the other shurikens . Having it printed with a +2 to hit seems really strong (especially with Enchanter's Whetstone), and it is also odd to see it in the same set as the Mighty Sling given they serve similar (but distinct) purposes.
Suggestions to fix: Either take it back down to +1 (and the uncommon back to Masterwork) or remove the to-hit bonus add in some elemental damage like we've seen in the past (e.g. Shuriken of Shock or Shuriken of Venom ).

Ioun Stone Tourmaline Tear
I was really happy with this token through the development process until the last round. I'm not against changing it slightly, but I feel the new wording just complicates it. If this was one of the small number of rares a very new player is exposed to I'm not sure its purpose would be completely clear due to the "to hit spell" language. I've never heard a DM say the monster used a "to hit" spell, and it feels likely that the clarification would be missed in the heat of the moment or would slow things down if people have to ask. This is also something which is up to the player to remember to track so it seems prudent to make it simpler.
Suggestions to fix: Either restore it to the wording from previous iterations so it is "+1 AC & -1 damage from ranged attacks (including spells)" or remove the secondary effect and just leave it at "+1 AC". I originally thought about suggesting replacing the damage reduction with something like "+1 HP" or "+1 to ___ saves" but both of those options felt like they encroached on other rare tokens (e.g. Tyr's Bracers or this year's Bracers of the Toad).

Bead of Bending
This is another token which feels like it was hit too quickly and now its power level directly conflicts with another token in the same set. See my description of the IS Tourmaline Tear above for a suggestion about how the current wording just complicates things since the same wording problem exists here, though I'm glad to see the wording is standardized across them. In addition, this token's effect is the same as the IS Tourmaline Tear right now except the IS also gets +1 AC. Given we only have one bead slot (for now anyways), it seems off that the IS gives more power since we can have 5 (or 7/9 at higher tiers) of them.
Suggestions to fix: Put this back to a -2 damage effect or change it to be something like "+2 AC against ranged attacks".

I also have a few suggestions for the UR as well based on changes in the last round:

Ring of the Drake
I'm fine with losing spell damage on this token but preserving the ranged damage bonus feels like it complicates things given the "to hit" spell interaction.
Suggestion to fix: Make the token read "+2 Fire damage to melee & thrown weapons. Shurikens gain Returning effect."

Ioun Stone Banshee Prism
Same reasoning above applies for this token as well with the interaction around "to hit spells".
Suggestion to fix: Make the token read "+2 Sonic damage to attacks with physical projectiles". Not sure this suggestion holds up well, but I was attempting to use a different term to describe "ranged attacks" excluding spells entirely.

Arcane Belt
If we drop spell damage from the Ring of the Drake, it seems reasonable to drop melee damage from this token. Suggestions to fix: Make the token read "+2 to damage with Ranged attacks (including spells); +2 to healing Spells you cast" or change the name to "Arcane Belt of Focus" and change the effect slightly to "+2 to healing, damage spells & polymorph damage".

If the Arcane Belt changes to be a belt of focus these three tokens together would form a nice triangle this year with a +2 damage bonus across every attack type. With my suggestion above thrown weapons would be the only type to go above this with a +4 damage bonus, but it is still less than the +6 it is getting now. I also like this because it would leave a pure +2 damage with spells ioun stone open for next year to round out that "set".

This post is longer than I expected and feel free to take it, leave it or pull chunks out where it makes sense.

I've seen a couple of recommendations to drop Melee and Ranged from the Ring of the Drake. I'm OK with that, but if it happens, I hope that +2 to Polymorph damage is added in. Essentially make it a Belt of Focus.

archmage78 wrote:

jedibcg wrote: Charm of Treasure Boosting is NOT a high end charm....just saying.

I would be willing to bet that the Charm of Treasure Boosting will see a lot more play then an UR Charm that adds 2 to the healing a player receives from a spell.

As will +1 Bliss Hammer. That doesn't make it a high end token.

archmage78 wrote:

jedibcg wrote: Charm of Treasure Boosting is NOT a high end charm....just saying.

I would be willing to bet that the Charm of Treasure Boosting will see a lot more play then an UR Charm that adds 2 to the healing a player receives from a spell.

I have 10 Charms of Treasure Boosting I will gladly trade for 10 of the Keys.

archmage78 wrote:

Endgame wrote:

archmage78 wrote: So, I know that there is a push and pull to tokens but these changes seemed drastic. Two tokens in particular got turned from very useful to no one will ever use and I am a bit confused as to why.

1st the key. 2 points of healing is not over powered as a slotlless item. It is just a nice item in the vein of many other minor healing slotless items. Now as a charm it is massively under-powered. I can sum up everyone's comments as, oh, I like that it is now sloted but I won't be getting one. This would be weak as a Rare charm much less an UR. I beg that it either gets a massive power bump like say 10 or 12 bonus healing from spells, or goes back to slotless. It is just so unusable as is.
.

+10 is an insanely broken amount of healing. At just +2 the key can account for over 300 extra hp over the course of the adventure. At +10, that would yield over 1500hp. I wouldn't increase it past +3 in the essentially wide open charm slot (10 charm builds are now possible!), but +2 is just fine. Maybe tack in scrolls as suggested earlier in the thread.

Slotless items are always pure power creep, and I'm glad the key was put in a slot now before printing instead of having to be nerfed later.

For this charm to equal 300 extra healing, every player must have it equipped and every player must be healed 15 times by spells. That math doesn't work.

You get +2 healing from a spell received. That means that you get +2 healing not 300. You seem to be treating this as it adds HP like the charm of synergy. This isn't the case. First, there are 10 players and you are assuming that all 10 are going to equip this very weak charm when it is clear that everyone on this thread understands that it is very weak and has already pointed out that they are not going to be doing so.

I believe that you are under the assumption that +2 healing is a lot but it would be almost never used. first, there are 10 players so mathematically speaking rarely does everyone get damaged. It is a very rare situation that the healer is healing the whole group. In fact, in 13 years of playing, I have had it happen perhaps 2 times total. Again, unlike the synergy that adds HP, this is a situational addition. There are only so many spells in the game as only the Cleric and Druid have them....and the 5th level Ranger.

Now, if you just count me, I have been healed by a spell 3 times in the past 4 Gen Cons. That means, in 4 years of playing, I would have received from this slotted charm, 6 HP in extra healing. In order to hit that 300 number, every player must be healed with every spell that the 2 healers have and that will never happen unless Jeff adds 7 more rooms.

Just listen to everyone chiming in on how they won't be buying this as a Charm. I can guarantee that any charm that adds to my chances to hit and my damage are far better than a charm that might heal me 2 extra from the 1 spell I need.

I mean, I haven't seen a single person using Wils Dragonheart charm in years and that gives a guaranteed 4 HP to a person's max. Why they don't use it is because it is so weak. And the Key is now weaker than this.

And finally, the Greater Alchemists pouch and The Scroll tube already add 2 to the healing of eaten healing and scroll healing and they are slotless items. I own both and have never had the occasion to use them.

I've posted the math 5 times now (at least). If you want I'll post it again, but later.

Your whole party hardly ever takes damage? You must be much better at puzzles than us, as we all take push damage at least once per dungeon.

Here is the math. All players must have the keys equipped and every player must be healed by 15 spells to get to 300. I read through the math and the +2 does not affect anything that you put in there. It only gives the owner of the key 2 extra HP healing when they receive the healing from a spell. Every player would literally have to be healed by 15 spells to get to your 300 number. I have never seen a player need 15 healing spells cast on him or her.

archmage78 wrote: Here is the math. All players must have the teeth equipped and every player must be healed by 15 spells to get to 300.

Not exactly. It involves a few other UR’s and and Ro7P. I am not arguing the power just that 300 is possible with other tokens.

archmage78 wrote: Here is the math. All players must have the teeth equipped and every player must be healed by 15 spells to get to 300.

0 teeth required.

Every cast of Soothe wounds heals 10 players. It's trivial to hit 4 Casts of Soothe wounds, which already accounts for 80 damage from keys.

Every lods cast adds 4. Base party with cleric and druid has 18 heals for another 72 healing from keys.

Without even trying you hit 152 extra healing.