TOPIC: FINAL NOTES & IMAGES 2020

kurtreznor wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote:

MasterED wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote: There is very little room between:
- UR +5 damage, -2 AC, limited to 2-handers
- And Rare +2 typed damage usable by all melee bracer
To squeeze in a UR usable by all melee bracer in the future. What damage would such a hypothetical UR have? +3?

My view point is like this...

The Wrist slot doesn't have any melee damage tokens in it beyond +2 for the Bracers of Frost/Fire/Lightning. Which would normally mean a UR would be around +3. Relic +4 etc. Having an original proposed token being +6 is too much power creep. Something I know that has been close to your heart.

So with this as a 2H Barbarian token they are getting +5 (I would have made it 4 but can live with 5) and -2 AC if you aren't a Barbarian. This would leave room for a 1H at +3 or +4 (with a -2 AC if you aren't a Fighter)

Ed

If we get an untyped, usable by all ur melee damage bracer at +3 in the next year or two this will be good reasoning. I don’t believe such a token will be made, because I don’t believe there will be sufficient demand in it.

I think it’s much more likely that we get typed damage at +4, which would make this token very bad in comparison.

One point of damage doesn’t mean much to me in this case either way.

I’m stuck on the idea that +3 points of melee damage “costs”:
Shift in rarity
Limitation to 2 handed melee
-2 AC
Loss of typed damage.

That “cost” seems to high to me, based on comparisons with existing tokens.

Wait, ive always considered untyped damage as better, because you arent going to run into resistance. Sure, there might be vulnerabilities, but resistence is more common and your equipment cant change to match the monster.

To each their own!

I think typed is better, especially in the wrist Bracers where you can easily pick among them based on your forecast in the dungeon - +5 damage due to vulnerability makes Bracers if fire/frost/shock +7 Bracers in a combat or two if you guess right.

If you run into resistance on the rare Bracers it _should_ only cost you 2 points if damage, as that’s all that is typed. (I have no idea how combat dms actually handle this - I suspect all typing is routinely ignored outside of things like “fire dart”, elemental polymorph, and crown of elemental command).

Plus it’s cooler

Matthew Hayward wrote: If you run into resistance on the rare Bracers it _should_ only cost you 2 points if damage, as that’s all that is typed.

Plus it’s cooler

In reality- you'll probably get -5 if the DM is checking types, though, right?

I was chatting with jpotter about this the other day.

jedibcg wrote:

Endgame wrote:

archmage78 wrote: So, I know that there is a push and pull to tokens but these changes seemed drastic. Two tokens in particular got turned from very useful to no one will ever use and I am a bit confused as to why.

1st the key. 2 points of healing is not over powered as a slotlless item. It is just a nice item in the vein of many other minor healing slotless items. Now as a charm it is massively under-powered. I can sum up everyone's comments as, oh, I like that it is now sloted but I won't be getting one. This would be weak as a Rare charm much less an UR. I beg that it either gets a massive power bump like say 10 or 12 bonus healing from spells, or goes back to slotless. It is just so unusable as is.
.

+10 is an insanely broken amount of healing. At just +2 the key can account for over 300 extra hp over the course of the adventure. At +10, that would yield over 1500hp. I wouldn't increase it past +3 in the essentially wide open charm slot (10 charm builds are now possible!), but +2 is just fine. Maybe tack in scrolls as suggested earlier in the thread.

Slotless items are always pure power creep, and I'm glad the key was put in a slot now before printing instead of having to be nerfed later.

a key at +2 is 300? or 10 keys are. there is a big difference there.

Good point. If everyone has a key its that high.

Edit

Count it the same way you would charm of synergy. If you see charm of synergy as 1 hp, count the key as a single +2 to heal.

I would prefer to see the Key at +3 now that it is slotted.

And I really love the Ring of Wonder, it's my favorite Token of this year's set.

As for the Token development process, I'm just glad that Jeff considers the input from people on the forums. He really doesn't have to. It's really a privilege for us to be able to weigh in. And if others are sending PM's, emails, texts, calling him, or whatever...well I have absolutely no problem with that. Especially if he finds it useful. And if there are vets out there who's opinions he really values but they don't weigh in until later, I have no problem with that either. If someone raises a good point (newbie or vet) at any time in the development process I believe Jeff considers it.

One thing I always do when the process is coming to an end is to take a step back, take a breath, and then compare the Tokens with sets from other years to see how I feel about them as a whole. And this year's Tokens are pretty awesome!! Look at all these crazy slot expanders and the Ring of Wonder, first year ever for something like this. And I'm really happy to see the C,UC,R Tokens go back to the basics so to speak. The Rare's are really good this year, as are the Transmutes. And glad to see more Rothfuss ties. Overall this year's set is really solid.

I do wonder about the +2 Shuriken. Let's take a look without Enchanter's Whetstone:

For a few bucks I'll be able to get 3-4 of these which covers me for an entire combat.

It offers +2 to hit at rare - a first, while also including my STR bonus as a thrown weapon.

I believe this makes it the best ranged rare weapon ever, unless you intended to use ammo (players at the rare level probably are not packing ~9 ammo one for each round through the dungeon).

I basically view this as: "+2 Mighty Sling, not usable by clerics, may not use ammo" printed at Rare (or maybe more like Enhanced to cover the cost of getting 3-4 of them).

A note on the monk legendary.

Consider that players 7 years from now will be considering building the monk Legendary. Extra uses of psychic powers are going to be of questionable value. They will need to track down oop psychic enablers and oop teeth to be able to use that part of the token.

If you want the monk legendary to be most useful to people currently building the teeth set, at the cost of usability for people building this 5+ years from now, leave as is.

If you want the monk legendary to be most useful its whole life, at the cost of being redundant with people collecting teeth, have it enable psychic and confer a certain number of levels.

Matthew Hayward wrote: I do wonder about the +2 Shuriken. Let's take a look without Enchanter's Whetstone:

For a few bucks I'll be able to get 3-4 of these which covers me for an entire combat.

It offers +2 to hit at rare - a first, while also including my STR bonus as a thrown weapon.

I believe this makes it the best ranged rare weapon ever, unless you intended to use ammo (players at the rare level probably are not packing ~9 ammo one for each round through the dungeon).

I basically view this as: "+2 Mighty Sling, not usable by clerics, may not use ammo" printed at Rare (or maybe more like Enhanced to cover the cost of getting 3-4 of them).

Ring of the Drake makes it return, so only need 1.
I do think taking it to a +1 would help a lot.

I do concur that the Shurikens should go from UC, Rare (+1) and if a UR is made (+2).

Ed

Endgame wrote: A note on the monk legendary.

Consider that players 7 years from now will be considering building the monk Legendary. Extra uses of psychic powers are going to be of questionable value. They will need to track down oop psychic enablers and oop teeth to be able to use that part of the token.

If you want the monk legendary to be most useful to people currently building the teeth set, at the cost of usability for people building this 5+ years from now, leave as is.

If you want the monk legendary to be most useful its whole life, at the cost of being redundant with people collecting teeth, have it enable psychic and confer a certain number of levels.

Absolutely disagree. I don't think giving teeth equiv on a single token, even a legendary, is the same as what the teeth collection and eldritch tokens entail. I would rather this item have no psychic powers granted, save maybe for acting as giving psychic potential (the no teeth situation). Conversely, I can see it enabling and granting extra uses. But absolutely think it goes far out of lane if granting an equiv to possessing a tooth/teeth.

overall, i think it is pretty solid as a legendary, worth building, but not grossly OP. As presented, it is overall very strong all around. I find psychic extra uses unwieldy, but fits the idea of the 'Ki monk' without grossly overstepping.

Rob F wrote: As for the Token development process, I'm just glad that Jeff considers the input from people on the forums. He really doesn't have to. It's really a privilege for us to be able to weigh in. And if others are sending PM's, emails, texts, calling him, or whatever...well I have absolutely no problem with that. Especially if he finds it useful. And if there are vets out there who's opinions he really values but they don't weigh in until later, I have no problem with that either. If someone raises a good point (newbie or vet) at any time in the development process I believe Jeff considers it.

+1

Arnold wrote:

Rob F wrote: As for the Token development process, I'm just glad that Jeff considers the input from people on the forums. He really doesn't have to. It's really a privilege for us to be able to weigh in. And if others are sending PM's, emails, texts, calling him, or whatever...well I have absolutely no problem with that. Especially if he finds it useful. And if there are vets out there who's opinions he really values but they don't weigh in until later, I have no problem with that either. If someone raises a good point (newbie or vet) at any time in the development process I believe Jeff considers it.

+1

Not all the veteran players waited until the end, Raven and I are as veteran as they come, two of just a handful to do every Dungeon plus True Heroes, and we were involved throughout the process, as well as other long-time players. And I do feel like Jeff incorporated many of our changes throughout the process. I'm not a fan of a number of players waiting until the process is technically over to provide their comments, or of numerous changes being made to the tokens and then locked down without the broader community getting input on the new changes. It is always possible that Jeff might make some changes based upon the feedback to these latest changes - there have been numerous "Final" versions in the past.

Endgame wrote:

jedibcg wrote:

Endgame wrote:

archmage78 wrote: So, I know that there is a push and pull to tokens but these changes seemed drastic. Two tokens in particular got turned from very useful to no one will ever use and I am a bit confused as to why.

1st the key. 2 points of healing is not over powered as a slotlless item. It is just a nice item in the vein of many other minor healing slotless items. Now as a charm it is massively under-powered. I can sum up everyone's comments as, oh, I like that it is now sloted but I won't be getting one. This would be weak as a Rare charm much less an UR. I beg that it either gets a massive power bump like say 10 or 12 bonus healing from spells, or goes back to slotless. It is just so unusable as is.
.

+10 is an insanely broken amount of healing. At just +2 the key can account for over 300 extra hp over the course of the adventure. At +10, that would yield over 1500hp. I wouldn't increase it past +3 in the essentially wide open charm slot (10 charm builds are now possible!), but +2 is just fine. Maybe tack in scrolls as suggested earlier in the thread.

Slotless items are always pure power creep, and I'm glad the key was put in a slot now before printing instead of having to be nerfed later.

a key at +2 is 300? or 10 keys are. there is a big difference there.

Good point. If everyone has a key its that high.

Edit

Count it the same way you would charm of synergy. If you see charm of synergy as 1 hp, count the key as a single +2 to heal.

CoS is Synergic though the keys are not. 10 CoS is not 10HP but 100HP. Which 10 UR’s. You cannot say only key is 300Heals because it is not. 10 Keys could be 300Heals.