TOPIC: FINAL NOTES & IMAGES 2020

This looks like a great year of tokens, and I like all of the changes.

Side note, just in case there is a another final version: I will buy the key regardless of the text as I am a fan of the books, but I would prefer to see it at +3 now that it is slotted or see the word Spell dropped so it works with scrolls.

Has it been confirmed yet that you can use the Transmuted Teeth & Individual Teeth with the Skull Yet?

OrionW wrote: This looks like a great year of tokens, and I like all of the changes.

Side note, just in case there is a another final version: I will buy the key regardless of the text as I am a fan of the books, but I would prefer to see it at +3 now that it is slotted or see the word Spell dropped so it works with scrolls.

Scrolls would be fine. I don't think you want to remove all qualifiers, or lay on hands is healing like 65 points of damage.

jedibcg wrote: I am also disappointed in vets waiting to the final version to make comments (or make comments not in a public way) so their comments cannot be commented on like everyone else’s have been for the past 2 weeks. Not saying I disagree with their comments, just saying, that it feels dirty to me.

+1. This gives a very strong impression that comments from newer players have little to no weight because they haven’t been around that long or because they couldn’t get a veteran to endorse their ideas. Makes for an uninviting playground.

So, I know that there is a push and pull to tokens but these changes seemed drastic. Two tokens in particular got turned from very useful to no one will ever use and I am a bit confused as to why.

1st the key. 2 points of healing is not over powered as a slotlless item. It is just a nice item in the vein of many other minor healing slotless items. Now as a charm it is massively under-powered. I can sum up everyone's comments as, oh, I like that it is now sloted but I won't be getting one. This would be weak as a Rare charm much less an UR. I beg that it either gets a massive power bump like say 10 or 12 bonus healing from spells, or goes back to slotless. It is just so unusable as is.

And this is more of a minor request. We have exactly 1 quiver in the game and it is out of print. It was very cool that there was a new quiver and it was a slotless item that was designed to use ammo. This was tailor made for the group of us who have tons of ammo tokens that we just never really use. This was a very well designed item that was only designed to make some of us actually use ammo tokens. It isn't terrible as is, but it isn't very powerful and no token people will be using it as their back slot. We need quivers, even if we make quiver a slot that would be fine, but to take only the 2nd quiver away and make it a rare back slot completely defeats the seeming original point of the rare token and that was to let us use all of the ammo tokens we have.

Great over all tokens but I believe that changing these two tokens would make them go from everyone using to no one using.

PalaDan wrote:

jedibcg wrote: I am also disappointed in vets waiting to the final version to make comments (or make comments not in a public way) so their comments cannot be commented on like everyone else’s have been for the past 2 weeks. Not saying I disagree with their comments, just saying, that it feels dirty to me.

+1. This gives a very strong impression that comments from newer players have little to no weight because they haven’t been around that long or because they couldn’t get a veteran to endorse their ideas. Makes for an uninviting playground.

I certainly spent a significant amount of time composing thoughts on the tokens. I know I was heard in some capacity because of changes made, but some feedback would be fantastic between revisions to guide the process (ex: we are going to have lucky plate in this set, so stop suggesting to remove it).

If certain vets have more weight than the others, we should have their input at day one in the LnL section. I feel like the assassin's blade got nuked because incognito didn't like it at the last second, and imo it was a fantastic tradeoff item that had grown revision to revision.

I agree that I was happy with the old quiver because I like the idea of something that makes me want to use consumables, which is why I was sad to see the ammo boost on the ranger neck go away.

I think it would have been cool to “equip” an ammo token In the coaching room and receive that buff for the whole game and that is how I think the animal companion should really be.

I agree that the key is now way underpowered but I do like that it is slotted

Edit: by “equip” and the animal companion being the whole game I suggest that they are still consumable just last the whole game.

MasterED wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote: There is very little room between:
- UR +5 damage, -2 AC, limited to 2-handers
- And Rare +2 typed damage usable by all melee bracer
To squeeze in a UR usable by all melee bracer in the future. What damage would such a hypothetical UR have? +3?

My view point is like this...

The Wrist slot doesn't have any melee damage tokens in it beyond +2 for the Bracers of Frost/Fire/Lightning. Which would normally mean a UR would be around +3. Relic +4 etc. Having an original proposed token being +6 is too much power creep. Something I know that has been close to your heart.

So with this as a 2H Barbarian token they are getting +5 (I would have made it 4 but can live with 5) and -2 AC if you aren't a Barbarian. This would leave room for a 1H at +3 or +4 (with a -2 AC if you aren't a Fighter)

Ed

If we get an untyped, usable by all ur melee damage bracer at +3 in the next year or two this will be good reasoning. I don’t believe such a token will be made, because I don’t believe there will be sufficient demand in it.

I think it’s much more likely that we get typed damage at +4, which would make this token very bad in comparison.

One point of damage doesn’t mean much to me in this case either way in terms of whether I’ll get or equity this token, from a pragmatic point of view.

I’m more stuck on the idea that +3 points of melee damage “costs”:
Shift in rarity
Limitation to 2 handed melee
-2 AC
Loss of typed damage.

That “cost” seems to high to me, based on comparisons with existing tokens.

Jeff Martin wrote: UR Ring of the Drake - I talked to Drake and he was cool with me dropping the +2 to "all" Spells bonus. It still gives +2 to Melee, Missiel and "to hit" Spells. So...for "to hit:" Spells, the max bonus for damage is still +6 this year with the URs available, but +2 for non-sliding damage Spells.

This description doesn't seem to match the image. Doesn't the "Ranged Attacks" wording include all spells? Similar to tokendb.com/token/blessed-wind-gloves/

archmage78 wrote: So, I know that there is a push and pull to tokens but these changes seemed drastic. Two tokens in particular got turned from very useful to no one will ever use and I am a bit confused as to why.

1st the key. 2 points of healing is not over powered as a slotlless item. It is just a nice item in the vein of many other minor healing slotless items. Now as a charm it is massively under-powered. I can sum up everyone's comments as, oh, I like that it is now sloted but I won't be getting one. This would be weak as a Rare charm much less an UR. I beg that it either gets a massive power bump like say 10 or 12 bonus healing from spells, or goes back to slotless. It is just so unusable as is.
.

+10 is an insanely broken amount of healing. At just +2 the key can account for over 300 extra hp over the course of the adventure. At +10, that would yield over 1500hp. I wouldn't increase it past +3 in the essentially wide open charm slot (10 charm builds are now possible!), but +2 is just fine. Maybe tack in scrolls as suggested earlier in the thread.

Slotless items are always pure power creep, and I'm glad the key was put in a slot now before printing instead of having to be nerfed later.

Matthew Hayward wrote:

MasterED wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote: There is very little room between:
- UR +5 damage, -2 AC, limited to 2-handers
- And Rare +2 typed damage usable by all melee bracer
To squeeze in a UR usable by all melee bracer in the future. What damage would such a hypothetical UR have? +3?

My view point is like this...

The Wrist slot doesn't have any melee damage tokens in it beyond +2 for the Bracers of Frost/Fire/Lightning. Which would normally mean a UR would be around +3. Relic +4 etc. Having an original proposed token being +6 is too much power creep. Something I know that has been close to your heart.

So with this as a 2H Barbarian token they are getting +5 (I would have made it 4 but can live with 5) and -2 AC if you aren't a Barbarian. This would leave room for a 1H at +3 or +4 (with a -2 AC if you aren't a Fighter)

Ed

If we get an untyped, usable by all ur melee damage bracer at +3 in the next year or two this will be good reasoning. I don’t believe such a token will be made, because I don’t believe there will be sufficient demand in it.

I think it’s much more likely that we get typed damage at +4, which would make this token very bad in comparison.

One point of damage doesn’t mean much to me in this case either way.

I’m stuck on the idea that +3 points of melee damage “costs”:
Shift in rarity
Limitation to 2 handed melee
-2 AC
Loss of typed damage.

That “cost” seems to high to me, based on comparisons with existing tokens.

Wait, ive always considered untyped damage as better, because you arent going to run into resistance. Sure, there might be vulnerabilities, but resistence is more common and your equipment cant change to match the monster.

Endgame wrote:

archmage78 wrote: So, I know that there is a push and pull to tokens but these changes seemed drastic. Two tokens in particular got turned from very useful to no one will ever use and I am a bit confused as to why.

1st the key. 2 points of healing is not over powered as a slotlless item. It is just a nice item in the vein of many other minor healing slotless items. Now as a charm it is massively under-powered. I can sum up everyone's comments as, oh, I like that it is now sloted but I won't be getting one. This would be weak as a Rare charm much less an UR. I beg that it either gets a massive power bump like say 10 or 12 bonus healing from spells, or goes back to slotless. It is just so unusable as is.
.

+10 is an insanely broken amount of healing. At just +2 the key can account for over 300 extra hp over the course of the adventure. At +10, that would yield over 1500hp. I wouldn't increase it past +3 in the essentially wide open charm slot (10 charm builds are now possible!), but +2 is just fine. Maybe tack in scrolls as suggested earlier in the thread.

Slotless items are always pure power creep, and I'm glad the key was put in a slot now before printing instead of having to be nerfed later.

a key at +2 is 300? or 10 keys are. there is a big difference there.