TOPIC: FINAL NOTES & IMAGES 2020

Commons
Armor (generally)

Decided that previous common armor sucked and should be made better? Will improving common armor push a power increase in uncommon, et al, armor?

Mace

Exactly the same as Heavy Mace. Could either change damage wheel or change name.

Potion Minor Healing

Back to using heals instead of cures.

Small Axe

I see one other small axe. It has a different damage wheel. This wheel is kind of high.

Uncommons
+1 Shuriken

I don't think rarity changes work with TD. Should cause havoc with apps. Just go back to this being Masterwork Shuriken.

Rares
+1 Short Bow

Damage wheel changed with this version.

+2 Shuriken

Should just be +1 Shuriken (a reprint).

Arrow Bag of Boosting

This is a terrible name. Not all ammo are arrows. Bag is way less cool than quiver. If can't quiver, how about Barrage Backpack, Munitions Mantle, Sureshot Surcoat, Precision Projectile Pack?

This is also rather interesting for just how much more powerful it became than the slotless version. All ammo all of the time +2. Doesn't bother me as I don't use ammo because it seems so wasteful.

Bead of Bending and ISTT

How many monster spells require a to hit? I have no sense.

Potion Heavy Healing

Back to saying heals rather than cures.

Mike Steele wrote: People certainly have a right to comment when and how they want, and Jeff certainly has a right to conduct the comment period how he wants (or to not include player feedback at all). I do agree though that something feels off about these private comments coming at the last minute and resulting in changes that aren't open for discussion. It does seem like there were so many changes based on the late and private comments by some players that it would be good if those changes were still open for discussion before locking down the design. Otherwise, it might encourage more to wait until the Final designs and then email comments to Jeff instead of commenting throughout the process.

I don’t know about when if Jeff provides us a a deadline of 3pm on Friday and someone makes comments after that, no matter how good they are, if is going to feel dirty to me evertime. NOT saying anyone did this, I haven’t a clue. I cannot find any public comments regarding shuriken being worse than an arrow. I searched if they are there please someone direct me to them so I can understand it. If there are not any then I think how also is important. The purpose of the threads on the tokens is for discussion of their development. As long as Jeff wants that discussion from us then we should be using them and not private messages to him about the development because again that feels dirty to me. So yes people have a right to comment when (outside of deadlines) and how (not of the forums) they want. I have a right to say it feels dirty to me.

Ring of the Drake's expansion symbols look longer than other tokens.

Btw, relating to Incognito's comments about spell damage getting too high and Hayward's that it isn't compared to melee:

Spell damage and missile damage used to be way, way behind. Playing Nightmare level druids and wizards recently, I don't anecdotally perceive that I'm doing anywhere near the damage I could be doing if I were meleeing, especially with double hitting monks and rangers around. Spells may also run out. That they autohit doesn't matter if the weaponeers don't ever miss. And, spell resistance can do things like cancel spells, sometimes less than half the spells, sometimes more than half.

I suppose you could say that if the fighter has +24 damage and the wizard +24 damage, then that's not balanced, as wizards don't slide to hit most of the time and can affect multiple targets. But, fighter at +28 and wizard at +20 seems biased towards class that has unlimited attacks. Of course, bonuses to damage are far bigger relatively at lower than UR levels. But, then, lower rarity levels have been gaining a lot of options that affect melee damage in recent years; I'm not sure how well spell damage has held up even with such things as Blessed Tempest Gloves.

Ian Lee wrote: Btw, relating to Incognito's comments about spell damage getting too high and Hayward's that it isn't compared to melee:

Spell damage and missile damage used to be way, way behind. Playing Nightmare level druids and wizards recently, I don't anecdotally perceive that I'm doing anywhere near the damage I could be doing if I were meleeing, especially with double hitting monks and rangers around. Spells may also run out. That they autohit doesn't matter if the weaponeers don't ever miss. And, spell resistance can do things like cancel spells, sometimes less than half the spells, sometimes more than half.

I suppose you could say that if the fighter has +24 damage and the wizard +24 damage, then that's not balanced, as wizards don't slide to hit most of the time and can affect multiple targets. But, fighter at +28 and wizard at +20 seems biased towards class that has unlimited attacks. Of course, bonuses to damage are far bigger relatively at lower than UR levels. But, then, lower rarity levels have been gaining a lot of options that affect melee damage in recent years; I'm not sure how well spell damage has held up even with such things as Blessed Tempest Gloves.

+1

Ian Lee wrote: Commons
Armor (generally)

Decided that previous common armor sucked and should be made better? Will improving common armor push a power increase in uncommon, et al, armor?

Mace

Exactly the same as Heavy Mace. Could either change damage wheel or change name.

Potion Minor Healing

Back to using heals instead of cures.

Small Axe

I see one other small axe. It has a different damage wheel. This wheel is kind of high.

Uncommons
+1 Shuriken

I don't think rarity changes work with TD. Should cause havoc with apps. Just go back to this being Masterwork Shuriken.

Rares
+1 Short Bow

Damage wheel changed with this version.

+2 Shuriken

Should just be +1 Shuriken (a reprint).

Arrow Bag of Boosting

This is a terrible name. Not all ammo are arrows. Bag is way less cool than quiver. If can't quiver, how about Barrage Backpack, Munitions Mantle, Sureshot Surcoat, Precision Projectile Pack?

Alliteration always abounds among ammo accessories?

Matt Goodman wrote: First of all, I'd like to thank Jeff and Co. for allowing us in on this process. There will be a lot of a criticism in this post, but I am overjoyed to be part of the process in this game and development thereof.

The last minute changes, very dramatic changes, things that were not even hinted at, on the final round is so flabbergasting; I don't even know if it's really hit me. I guess I'm still waiting for "Final revision +72 SUPER FINAL".

Criticism on the Monk legendary token:
I guess the biggest question is why? Why did this get changed?
Question for TPTB: Can a monk throw two weapons? Similar to melee FoB? Can I throw two Asher's Viper Strike Fang? If not, then this should be dropped. If yes, then I need time to think.

Criticism on the last minute comments that influenced things.
This seems like a really dirty diaper (I have a two year old, so yeah). There was a deadline of 3 pm. Most of us did abide by that deadline, made our final arguments, engaged in a spirited, yet surprisingly civil, discussion. Props to us! And then, some last minute people get to chime in, and because they have been around longer, they get their voices heard more clearly, not time for discussion, follow-ups, etc. I specifically remembered looking at the posts, realizing that it's after 3 pm, and saying to myself, "well, they missed the deadline, so no need to create a rebuttal". Then it appears that those posts DID influence the process, and not in a minor way! I understand that we are not entitled to have this participation at all, but if you give it to us, then give it non-uniformly, it leaves me with a poison in my mouth.

+1. You sum it up perfectly, especially on the deadline analogy. A lot of guards were down.

Mike Steele wrote:

jedibcg wrote: I am confused by the following “Remove the +1 Short Sword (since we have the +1 Assassin's Blade already at Rare) and I replaced it with a +2 Shuriken. Yes, I know that in the past it was only a +1 Shurilken, but that was probably a mistake since it is only usable once a combat and it does less damage than the +2 Arrow. I upgraded the Uncommon Masterwork Shuriken to +1 status, too -- for the same reason.”
How is a +1 shuriken doing less than a +2 arrow? A +2 arrow is a consumable so I don’t know how they are comparable. It also only does 2 additional damage. A +1 Shuriken does 3.5 damage on average. I am NOT saying that they should or shouldn’t get a bump, just that I don’t understand this logic.

I am also disappointed in vets waiting to the final version to make comments (or make comments not in a public way) so their comments cannot be commented on like everyone else’s have been for the past 2 weeks. Not saying I disagree with their comments, just saying, that it feels dirty to me.

People certainly have a right to comment when and how they want, and Jeff certainly has a right to conduct the comment period how he wants (or to not include player feedback at all). I do agree though that something feels off about these private comments coming at the last minute and resulting in changes that aren't open for discussion. It does seem like there were so many changes based on the late and private comments by some players that it would be good if those changes were still open for discussion before locking down the design. Otherwise, it might encourage more to wait until the Final designs and then email comments to Jeff instead of commenting throughout the process.

+1
It now sets a precedent and for me and a lot of others it really left a bad taste. It was also was very blatantly obvious what was going on. This is not speculation or conspiracy theory, most of it was in the open for anyone to read.

I'm ready to move past this but this needs to be noted and discouraged going forward. Bad form.

Sad to see the majority of the +spell damage dropped off this years set. As new players, spell damage is so hard to come by and has a heavy cost to purchase on the secondary markets. I understand the idea of limiting accumulating power creep for high end builds. Though I believe the burden is placed on new players in our current meta.

Jeff and team are free to take any and all suggestions from any and all parties, and to ascribe whatever weight they would like to those opinions, whenever they receive them

We are free to provide further opinions, including either not buying tokens or not making transmutes.

The number of players whose response has been, "well, these changes saved me a lot of money" is quite high.

I do think consideration has been given to many of the points we raised here. I don't think any decision is made lightly.

Wade Schwendemann wrote: Jeff and team are free to take any and all suggestions from any and all parties, and to ascribe whatever weight they would like to those opinions, whenever they receive them

You are correct, they are free to do as they please. We also have a right to not be happy about it.

jedibcg wrote:

Wade Schwendemann wrote: Jeff and team are free to take any and all suggestions from any and all parties, and to ascribe whatever weight they would like to those opinions, whenever they receive them

We are free to provide further opinions, including either not buying tokens or not making transmutes.

The number of players whose response has been, "well, these changes saved me a lot of money" is quite high.

I do think consideration has been given to many of the points we raised here. I don't think any decision is made lightly.

you are correct they are. We also have a right to not be happy about it.

I'm with you on that.

Wade Schwendemann wrote:

jedibcg wrote:

Wade Schwendemann wrote: Jeff and team are free to take any and all suggestions from any and all parties, and to ascribe whatever weight they would like to those opinions, whenever they receive them

We are free to provide further opinions, including either not buying tokens or not making transmutes.

The number of players whose response has been, "well, these changes saved me a lot of money" is quite high.

I do think consideration has been given to many of the points we raised here. I don't think any decision is made lightly.

you are correct they are. We also have a right to not be happy about it.

I'm with you on that.

+2
AND point out it was after the "Final" round of a long process when many were not looking.