TOPIC: FINAL NOTES & IMAGES 2020

JACKOFTRADZE wrote:

Wayne Rhodes wrote:
I’m still disappointed the +5 Holy avenger doesn’t have full time guard (even if it didn’t stack with AoG as a compromise)

Would like to see lenses of agility to allow ranges sneak attack with all ranged weapons. It just is more interesting if you give me a reason to use it over lenses of the fae.

+1 on both. There is zero reason to get these Lenses now as it's a big step down from the Hammer and you have to get the UR bow and it's the same as the Fae while Fae gives you vision. Fae is better for every class.

The ship has apparently sailed on the Paladin Avenger. It sucks, but GC is in a week, which will hopefully help me get over it.

I think the lenses are still great. The newer player getting it will be excited to have the 3 Dex, and a newer rogue will choose to build for it.

I agree that current legendary rogues will likely pass, since it doesnt work with Thor's. I assume the reason not to do a straight reprint has to do with that interaction as well.

The key is now pretty bad. Slotless +2 healing may be too good, charm slot is far too crowded for this to be at all useful.

The lucky plate still seems high on AC.

I'm with those who think spell damage is going to get confusing without modifying the party card in some way. Having different modifiers on to hit and damage than the listed range or spell modifiers is certainly potentially confusing.

Did the monk legendary get a damage bump? Not sure that was needed, whatever other changes came along.

The process is what it is. I know feedback comes from all sides at times and, as I and many others have said, it can't be easy for Jeff and his team.

I don't feel great about this round, and haven't for a couple.

I hope we can all get along and move past this.

Just got thinking on it more but the +2 Shuriken is better than the relic hammer in this current revision.

Now that ring of the drake gives all Shuriken returning for all classes, add enchanters whetstone. Drakes is great without the returning Shurikins, I think the class limitation needs added back.

Wayne Rhodes wrote: Just got thinking on it more but the +2 Shuriken is better than the relic hammer in this current revision.

Now that ring of the drake gives all Shuriken returning for all classes, add enchanters whetstone. Drakes is great without the returning Shurikins, I think the class limitation needs added back.

Class restriction is definitely needed on rare shuriken.

First of all, I'd like to thank Jeff and Co. for allowing us in on this process. There will be a lot of a criticism in this post, but I am overjoyed to be part of the process in this game and development thereof.

The last minute changes, very dramatic changes, things that were not even hinted at, on the final round is so flabbergasting; I don't even know if it's really hit me. I guess I'm still waiting for "Final revision +72 SUPER FINAL".

Criticism on the Monk legendary token:
I guess the biggest question is why? Why did this get changed?
Question for TPTB: Can a monk throw two weapons? Similar to melee FoB? Can I throw two Asher's Viper Strike Fang? If not, then this should be dropped. If yes, then I need time to think.

Criticism on the last minute comments that influenced things.
This seems like a really dirty diaper (I have a two year old, so yeah). There was a deadline of 3 pm. Most of us did abide by that deadline, made our final arguments, engaged in a spirited, yet surprisingly civil, discussion. Props to us! And then, some last minute people get to chime in, and because they have been around longer, they get their voices heard more clearly, not time for discussion, follow-ups, etc. I specifically remembered looking at the posts, realizing that it's after 3 pm, and saying to myself, "well, they missed the deadline, so no need to create a rebuttal". Then it appears that those posts DID influence the process, and not in a minor way! I understand that we are not entitled to have this participation at all, but if you give it to us, then give it non-uniformly, it leaves me with a poison in my mouth.

Wayne Rhodes wrote: Can we bump the Shurikens down by +1 each. Mostly saying this because the enchanters whetstone make the rare effectively a +3 weapon.

This reasoning is pretty flawed, as every single rare can have the enchanter's whetstone.

JACKOFTRADZE wrote:

Wayne Rhodes wrote:
I’m still disappointed the +5 Holy avenger doesn’t have full time guard (even if it didn’t stack with AoG as a compromise)

Would like to see lenses of agility to allow ranges sneak attack with all ranged weapons. It just is more interesting if you give me a reason to use it over lenses of the fae.

+1 on both. There is zero reason to get these Lenses now as it's a big step down from the Hammer and you have to get the UR bow and it's the same as the Fae while Fae gives you vision. Fae is better for every class.

Wayne Rhodes wrote:

Boilerplate wrote: No longer interested in getting the key. Not good enough at +2 for a charm slot. Maybe it would be PYP-able at +3.

+1

+1

Lenses, Bow and the Key all came off my list this round when all 3 were on the last. This was my point earlier of pushing constant changes.

Well, i dont have a legendary hammer. And lenses of the fae nor vital insight were tempting enough to my melee rogue to keep instead of the heimdal sight. BUT, these new lenses of agility, even at +3dex, are great for rogue. Sadly, they are a bad choice for everyone else, but no harm to stay open to all.

Fiddy wrote:

Wayne Rhodes wrote: Just got thinking on it more but the +2 Shuriken is better than the relic hammer in this current revision.

Now that ring of the drake gives all Shuriken returning for all classes, add enchanters whetstone. Drakes is great without the returning Shurikins, I think the class limitation needs added back.

Class restriction is definitely needed on rare shuriken.

I think if we limit the returning to monks and drop the shuriken to a +1 then they will be fine, or at the very least drop the rare.

jedibcg wrote: I am confused by the following “Remove the +1 Short Sword (since we have the +1 Assassin's Blade already at Rare) and I replaced it with a +2 Shuriken. Yes, I know that in the past it was only a +1 Shurilken, but that was probably a mistake since it is only usable once a combat and it does less damage than the +2 Arrow. I upgraded the Uncommon Masterwork Shuriken to +1 status, too -- for the same reason.”
How is a +1 shuriken doing less than a +2 arrow? A +2 arrow is a consumable so I don’t know how they are comparable. It also only does 2 additional damage. A +1 Shuriken does 3.5 damage on average. I am NOT saying that they should or shouldn’t get a bump, just that I don’t understand this logic.

I am also disappointed in vets waiting to the final version to make comments (or make comments not in a public way) so their comments cannot be commented on like everyone else’s have been for the past 2 weeks. Not saying I disagree with their comments, just saying, that it feels dirty to me.

People certainly have a right to comment when and how they want, and Jeff certainly has a right to conduct the comment period how he wants (or to not include player feedback at all). I do agree though that something feels off about these private comments coming at the last minute and resulting in changes that aren't open for discussion. It does seem like there were so many changes based on the late and private comments by some players that it would be good if those changes were still open for discussion before locking down the design. Otherwise, it might encourage more to wait until the Final designs and then email comments to Jeff instead of commenting throughout the process.

JACKOFTRADZE wrote:

Wayne Rhodes wrote:
I’m still disappointed the +5 Holy avenger doesn’t have full time guard (even if it didn’t stack with AoG as a compromise)

Would like to see lenses of agility to allow ranges sneak attack with all ranged weapons. It just is more interesting if you give me a reason to use it over lenses of the fae.

+1 on both. There is zero reason to get these Lenses now as it's a big step down from the Hammer and you have to get the UR bow and it's the same as the Fae while Fae gives you vision. Fae is better for every class.

Wayne Rhodes wrote:

Boilerplate wrote: No longer interested in getting the key. Not good enough at +2 for a charm slot. Maybe it would be PYP-able at +3.

+1

+1

Lenses, Bow and the Key all came off my list this round when all 3 were on the last. This was my point earlier of pushing constant changes.

I do agree that Lenses of the Fae is better for players not using a bow, but I prefer the new Lenses since our Rogue is using a Bow. To me that is good token design, each token is better in different builds. I think it would be overpowered if it were better than every other lenses option in all builds.

Wayne Rhodes wrote: Can we bump the Shurikens down by +1 each. Mostly saying this because the enchanters whetstone make the rare effectively a +3 weapon. I really liked the earlier silver Shuriken, can we get that version back.

I’m still disappointed the +5 Holy avenger doesn’t have full time guard (even if it didn’t stack with AoG as a compromise)

Glad to see the shield nerf, bake the relic clearly better.

Would like to see lenses of agility to allow ranges sneak attack with all ranged weapons. It just is more interesting if you give me a reason to use it over lenses of the fae.

Not convinced that the blessed shield is better. They feel about the same if you aren't a class trying to put ac as high as possible. Lucky shield is Also available to more classes

The plate ac still feels to high to, but at this point I'll Accept that its meant to obsolete most other ur plate.

On the lenses, if your a rogue (and not one of the few sling / hammer rogues) these far eclipse vital insight. For everyone else that gets one, it's not useless, but fae is still the better choice. This is OK.

Fiddy wrote:

Wayne Rhodes wrote: Just got thinking on it more but the +2 Shuriken is better than the relic hammer in this current revision.

Now that ring of the drake gives all Shuriken returning for all classes, add enchanters whetstone. Drakes is great without the returning Shurikins, I think the class limitation needs added back.

Class restriction is definitely needed on rare shuriken.

Quoting this because no one commented on my post yet.

Why does the +2 shuriken have a different class restriction than all other shuriken? Is this intended? Did I miss a Jeff proclamation?

And yes I think that the +2 shuriken with the whetstone is a little out of hand. A lot out of hand if everyone except cleric can use it. Another cleric shaft job

Wayne Rhodes wrote:

Fiddy wrote:

Wayne Rhodes wrote: Just got thinking on it more but the +2 Shuriken is better than the relic hammer in this current revision.

Now that ring of the drake gives all Shuriken returning for all classes, add enchanters whetstone. Drakes is great without the returning Shurikins, I think the class limitation needs added back.

Class restriction is definitely needed on rare shuriken.

I think if we limit the returning to monks and drop the shuriken to a +1 then they will be fine, or at the very least drop the rare.

It seems like if it is too powerful for everyone to use, then it's also too powerful for just Monks to use. Otherwise we're getting back into the GoFF (which I still hope is nerfed at some point) problem where the most powerful melee class is getting unique advantages at ranges as well.