TOPIC: FINAL NOTES & IMAGES 2020

Matthew Hayward wrote: There is very little room between:
- UR +5 damage, -2 AC, limited to 2-handers
- And Rare +2 typed damage usable by all melee bracer
To squeeze in a UR usable by all melee bracer in the future. What damage would such a hypothetical UR have? +3?

My view point is like this...

The Wrist slot doesn't have any melee damage tokens in it beyond +2 for the Bracers of Frost/Fire/Lightning. Which would normally mean a UR would be around +3. Relic +4 etc. Having an original proposed token being +6 is too much power creep. Something I know that has been close to your heart.

So with this as a 2H Barbarian token they are getting +5 (I would have made it 4 but can live with 5) and -2 AC if you aren't a Barbarian. This would leave room for a 1H at +3 or +4 (with a -2 AC if you aren't a Fighter)

Ed

Philip Goodman wrote: Does Fury work against crit-immune enemies?

No it shouldn't unless you are equipping tokendb.com/token/bracers-of-guided-strike/ or a similar token relevant for that monster type.

Ed

Jeff Martin wrote: Trans Monk's Relic & Legendary - We took out the Gloves of Glory power (many thought it was not good enough to include as is) and we added some new abilities that should work better...and the Legendary should be fun for fans of 70's Chinese martial art films. We took out the granting of PT-5 Psychic Power since most Legendary Monks will have a higher level anyway in a few short years.

I am concerned about this change. I believe you meant Gloves of Flying Fist. It also seems to me you were going for something like this for an effect:

Relics
Add Keen Critical (19-20)
Monks may throw Shurikens and they get the returning effect. Shurikens will use the Ranged To Hit and Ranged Damage off the party card.
Remove innate Psychic but allow +1 uses

Legendary
Add Keen Critical (19-20)
Monks may throw any FoB weapon and it gains the returning effect. They will also use the Ranged To Hit and Ranged Damage off the party card.
Remove innate Psychic but allow +2 uses

Since Relic/Legendary are mostly aligned for Nightmare and Epic play I think this will actually cause Monks to use Potion of Leaping Attack (like Fighters) or stick with their Gloves of Flying Fists (GoFF) which is very balancing if it wasn't for the Thor's Hammer (yes again that token rears its ugly head). Barbarians and Fighters can use that token and still have to use their Ranged To Hit but get their Melee To Damage (because it is a compound weapon). Monk's could use the Thor's but only 1 of them because it isn't FoB.

I think allowing Monk's at legendary to use any weapon as FoB would be OP so that is out.
If you are going to stick with this change I would change the legendary to say all FoB get Returning & Compound to at least put the FoB on par with the Thor's hammer (Ranged To Hit/Melee To Damaged when thrown).

I feel I am not in love with the Legendary but will I make and equip one - sure mostly for the damage and critical aspects. I guess the returning and thrown FOB thematically makes sense just won't be used in the game at the high level.

Questions that have to be answered...

Do Ranged attacks Stun (they should because nothing on the player card says melee)
Is Ranged To Hit and Damage need to calculated of the FoB weapon for Legendary
With the legendary can the monk throw two FoB weapons (Viper Fangs) - I would expect so just clarifying

Ed

jedibcg wrote: I am also disappointed in vets waiting to the final version to make comments (or make comments not in a public way) so their comments cannot be commented on like everyone else’s have been for the past 2 weeks. Not saying I disagree with their comments, just saying, that it feels dirty to me.

Suggestion. As there were some who claimed they were not aware of the token development process, include announcements about the start and status of the process in the email newsletter.

Having said that, Jeff is under no obligation whatsoever to include us in this process. I’m grateful that he does.

MasterED wrote:

Jeff Martin wrote: Trans Monk's Relic & Legendary - We took out the Gloves of Glory power (many thought it was not good enough to include as is) and we added some new abilities that should work better...and the Legendary should be fun for fans of 70's Chinese martial art films. We took out the granting of PT-5 Psychic Power since most Legendary Monks will have a higher level anyway in a few short years.

I am concerned about this change. I believe you meant Gloves of Flying Fist. It also seems to me you were going for something like this for an effect:

Relics
Add Keen Critical (19-20)
Monks may throw Shurikens and they get the returning effect. Shurikens will use the Ranged To Hit and Ranged Damage off the party card.
Remove innate Psychic but allow +1 uses

Legendary
Add Keen Critical (19-20)
Monks may throw any FoB weapon and it gains the returning effect. They will also use the Ranged To Hit and Ranged Damage off the party card.
Remove innate Psychic but allow +2 uses

Since Relic/Legendary are mostly aligned for Nightmare and Epic play I think this will actually cause Monks to use Potion of Leaping Attack (like Fighters) or stick with their Gloves of Flying Fists (GoFF) which is very balancing if it wasn't for the Thor's Hammer (yes again that token rears its ugly head). Barbarians and Fighters can use that token and still have to use their Ranged To Hit but get their Melee To Damage (because it is a compound weapon). Monk's could use the Thor's but only 1 of them because it isn't FoB.

I think allowing Monk's at legendary to use any weapon as FoB would be OP so that is out.
If you are going to stick with this change I would change the legendary to say all FoB get Returning & Compound to at least put the FoB on par with the Thor's hammer (Ranged To Hit/Melee To Damaged when thrown).

I feel I am not in love with the Legendary but will I make and equip one - sure mostly for the damage and critical aspects. I guess the returning and thrown FOB thematically makes sense just won't be used in the game at the high level.

Questions that have to be answered...

Do Ranged attacks Stun (they should because nothing on the player card says melee)
Is Ranged To Hit and Damage need to calculated of the FoB weapon for Legendary
With the legendary can the monk throw two FoB weapons (Viper Fangs) - I would expect so just clarifying

Ed

Im not sure what you are asking to change when talking about FoB being compound. Isnt a melee weapon being thrown the same as compound? I assumed that was the intent of this ability.

And i think the way to do that is once a monk equips the legendary, they can put FoB weapons in the ranged hand slots. So that it will be calculated as a thrown weapon (ie using STR bonus for damage). Also, i see the monk items add damage to FoB, not melee, so that damage should also get added when they FoB at range.

Can we bump the Shurikens down by +1 each. Mostly saying this because the enchanters whetstone make the rare effectively a +3 weapon. I really liked the earlier silver Shuriken, can we get that version back.

I’m still disappointed the +5 Holy avenger doesn’t have full time guard (even if it didn’t stack with AoG as a compromise)

Glad to see the shield nerf, bake the relic clearly better.

Would like to see lenses of agility to allow ranges sneak attack with all ranged weapons. It just is more interesting if you give me a reason to use it over lenses of the fae.

Harlax wrote:

jedibcg wrote: I am also disappointed in vets waiting to the final version to make comments (or make comments not in a public way) so their comments cannot be commented on like everyone else’s have been for the past 2 weeks. Not saying I disagree with their comments, just saying, that it feels dirty to me.

Suggestion. As there were some who claimed they were not aware of the token development process, include announcements about the start and status of the process in the email newsletter.

Having said that, Jeff is under no obligation whatsoever to include us in this process. I’m grateful that he does.

He is not and I am too but I think this time around it made things worse by having so many rounds of revisions. There should have been a cut off at round 5.

In regards to jedibcg's comments I am too because their voices were really needed the last few rounds. When you look at how contentious it got and the relatively small pool of the same commenters (no offense I was one of them) a lot of players did not want to jump in the fray feeling that comments would get lost as pages of the same arguments were being had. I was surprised how many vets were missing from the dev boards. Also, I felt some last minute efforts felt a little dirty. 3 UR's are off my list since the last "Final" round LOL. It's amazing with what 1 can round can do.

This year's process felt like watching the Last Jedi. I'm glad it's over.

Boilerplate wrote: No longer interested in getting the key. Not good enough at +2 for a charm slot. Maybe it would be PYP-able at +3.

+1

Wayne Rhodes wrote:
I’m still disappointed the +5 Holy avenger doesn’t have full time guard (even if it didn’t stack with AoG as a compromise)

Would like to see lenses of agility to allow ranges sneak attack with all ranged weapons. It just is more interesting if you give me a reason to use it over lenses of the fae.

+1 on both. There is zero reason to get these Lenses now as it's a big step down from the Hammer and you have to get the UR bow and it's the same as the Fae while Fae gives you vision. Fae is better for every class.

Wayne Rhodes wrote:

Boilerplate wrote: No longer interested in getting the key. Not good enough at +2 for a charm slot. Maybe it would be PYP-able at +3.

+1

+1

Lenses, Bow and the Key all came off my list this round when all 3 were on the last. This was my point earlier of pushing constant changes.

Been out of the loop for a few days, getting caught up now, but on first pass this is a good round of changes. It feels more in line with over all power level, I am also excited about the ring of wonder

MasterED wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote: There is very little room between:
- UR +5 damage, -2 AC, limited to 2-handers
- And Rare +2 typed damage usable by all melee bracer
To squeeze in a UR usable by all melee bracer in the future. What damage would such a hypothetical UR have? +3?

My view point is like this...

The Wrist slot doesn't have any melee damage tokens in it beyond +2 for the Bracers of Frost/Fire/Lightning. Which would normally mean a UR would be around +3. Relic +4 etc. Having an original proposed token being +6 is too much power creep. Something I know that has been close to your heart.

So with this as a 2H Barbarian token they are getting +5 (I would have made it 4 but can live with 5) and -2 AC if you aren't a Barbarian. This would leave room for a 1H at +3 or +4 (with a -2 AC if you aren't a Fighter)

Ed

Going straight from Rare to UR for comparisons doesn't leave any room for Enhanced or Exalted to be created between them.

Not disagreeing with the overall argument, just pointing out something that gets overlooked when we think of UR as being +1 better than a Rare, without something in between.

MasterED wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote: There is very little room between:
- UR +5 damage, -2 AC, limited to 2-handers
- And Rare +2 typed damage usable by all melee bracer
To squeeze in a UR usable by all melee bracer in the future. What damage would such a hypothetical UR have? +3?

My view point is like this...

The Wrist slot doesn't have any melee damage tokens in it beyond +2 for the Bracers of Frost/Fire/Lightning. Which would normally mean a UR would be around +3. Relic +4 etc. Having an original proposed token being +6 is too much power creep. Something I know that has been close to your heart.

So with this as a 2H Barbarian token they are getting +5 (I would have made it 4 but can live with 5) and -2 AC if you aren't a Barbarian. This would leave room for a 1H at +3 or +4 (with a -2 AC if you aren't a Fighter)

Ed

FYI, at +5, I believe the best advice to give someone is to skip these bracers and track down charm bracelets, as the target audience is really narrow.

If you're a red only player, or a single ur, you're sticking with +2 damage bracers.

If you're a multi ur player, you can swing charm bracelets + charm of glory + ring of brilliance / ring of the eel + Draco litch charm / charm of rampage. For roughly or exactly the same damage, plus the flexibility to drop some damage for something else