TOPIC: Transmuted 2020 Token Images - Final-ish

PalaDan wrote:

Milambus (Jake) wrote:

PalaDan wrote: We just wanna be better protectors.

Let us protect you, peeps!

Ok, a proposal for you then.

+1 to # guarded w/ Guard, -5 damage if you do (or -5 attack)

I just don't think it needs any more nerfs.

+1

Milambus (Jake) wrote:

PalaDan wrote: We just wanna be better protectors.

Let us protect you, peeps!

Ok, a proposal for you then.

+1 to # guarded w/ Guard, -5 damage if you do (or -5 attack)

What if Guard included something like -5 AC to Paladin for every person guarded? That way, the thinner the Paladin stretches himself out guarding multiple people, the lower his AC is.

PalaDan wrote:

Milambus (Jake) wrote:

PalaDan wrote: We just wanna be better protectors.

Let us protect you, peeps!

Ok, a proposal for you then.

+1 to # guarded w/ Guard, -5 damage if you do (or -5 attack)

I just don't think it needs any more nerfs.

Just to be clear, my proposal was unlimited Paladins can Guard an additional person, but when they do they get -5 damage.

Edit: Where "unlimited" means you can do it in every room. (Not that you can do it an unlimited amount of times.)

Mike Steele wrote:

Milambus (Jake) wrote:

PalaDan wrote: We just wanna be better protectors.

Let us protect you, peeps!

Ok, a proposal for you then.

+1 to # guarded w/ Guard, -5 damage if you do (or -5 attack)

What if Guard included something like -5 AC to Paladin for every person guarded? That way, the thinner the Paladin stretches himself out guarding multiple people, the lower his AC is.

My initial idea was -1 Attack for each person guarded, because as you focus on guarding more people it gets harder to also attack effectively.

PalaDan wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Fiddy wrote:

Rob F wrote:

PalaDan wrote: Still not understanding how the AoG/Guard on HA combo is being considered so unbalancing. Neither does the “free neck slot” argument.

Fighters will be able to equip their legendary with any weapon they choose, including Welfor’s.
Barbarians will be able to equip their legendary with any weapon they choose, including the deathcleaver.
Monks -> neck + Asher’s
Rangers -> neck + Io’s

They’re all getting bumps to their ability to attack. Extra guard bumps a paladin’s ability to defend.

Your correct that the classes you mentioned all will get to equip their Legendary weapon and their Legendary neck slot. The difference though is in the powers of the Legendary weapons beyond just the damage. Welfor's and Cleaver have none. Asher's two points of poison which most are immune to, and Io's extra crit range but a big stat to get there. With the HA you could make a case that just the powers of the sword alone could be combined into a powerful Token. And these powers are now being put on a weapon which takes up no slot. What Token could be made from the powers of the other Legendary weapons? +2 poison damage, so maybe a Rare at best. And 18-20 crit but must have 20 Dex. That's how I see there being a difference in the weapons. The HA as is will become the most powerful weapon ever created.

You're absolutely right, but part of issue hidden there is that Welfor's (at least) is weaker than it should be (given the classes it is restricted to and the weapons available with fewer restrictions). We didn't reign in Asher's or Thor's enough when they were made. Welfor's really ought to be bumped up (via some TokenDB errata) or replaced with a newer Legendary. But we're unlikely to get a new Legendary weapon for Fighters and their kin for several years, since next year the Fighters get their necklace.

I think it is somewhat appropriate for the HA to be the current most powerful weapon, at least until there is one that Fighters can use.

I wouldn't want to see a Paladin weapon more powerful than ones Fighters and Barbarians can use, since fighting is pretty much all those classes do, while the Paladin has other abilities. Like you said, it will likely be years before the Fighters get another Legendary weapon. Since this sword has so many other abilities, it's actual damage should be below the other Legendary weapons that don't have all the bonus abilities.

Again, we're comparing the HA to other legendary weapons in a vacuum. Yes, the HA will compound with AoG, but so will the older legendary weapons with the legendary neck slots:
Ranger with Io’s:
• 10-20 damage wheel
• Criticals on 18-20
• +4 Con
• +9 to damage with ranged attacks,
• 2 scrolls per game
• Animal friend
Barbarian with Averon’s:
• 8-21 damage wheel
• +10 to damage
• +1 Rage
• Fury 2/game
Monk with 1 Asher’s:
• 8-13 damage wheel (includes 2 poison damage)
• +6 FoB sacred damage
• Stun on 18-20
• FoB on ranged attacks
• T5 psy power
• +1 psy power
Bard with Wydseth’s – can equip Thor’s:
• 6-11 damage wheel
• Crit on 19-20
• Both melee and ranged w/returning
• +4 hit/damage for the entire party
• May perform any standard action while using bardsong
Druid with Drue’s:
• 6-13 or 6-18 damage wheel
• +5 to spells, healing and polymorph damage
• Polymorph into elemental as a free action (w/spells)
o DR against a chosen energy type
Paladin with Ava’s and the “free neck slot”:
• 6-14 damage wheel
• “20” kills Evil Outsider
• Grace 2/game
• +15 LoH
• +1 Guard 1/game
• Either +1 guard (AoG) or +3 Str/+4 Con

And we don't even know what the fighter/dwarf fighter necks will do yet.

This is not entirely accurate. What you are forgetting here is the loss of the current neck item for each class that equips the Legendary neck. So add to your data -3 Str, -4 Con for the Barbarian (losing Valhalla), same for Monk, maybe losing Stu's for the Ranger, etc. If you do that then you will have an accurate comparison across builds once all items are equipped.

Milambus (Jake) wrote:

MasterED wrote: My statement should not cause you to reach a conclusion that there shouldn't be a damage based wrist item. There are already a few at Rare for +2. I just think jumping from +2 to +6 is extreme. +3 or +4 would be much more inline.

The +2 damage bracers are usable by everyone. If we made a rare damage bracer that was restricted to 2-handers it should be +3 damage. (Good idea for next year btw)

+3 or +4 damage would be correct for a Ultra Rare if everyone could use them and there was no downside to the token. Making them +6 damage with -2 AC and restricted to 2-handed weapons seems right to me.

MasterED wrote: When I see +6 DMG (from Bracers which is a net +4 beyond a Rare), +10 from Legendary (just those two alone is +14) now double it twice per game due to Fury and you have just added +56 dps for the Barbarian. If you assume 3 combats of 3 rounds each then there is another 98 (14 * 7) points of damage added for the run to a total of 154 assuming all hits.

If all the Monk attacks hit (same 3 combats and 3 rounds all hits) we get +6 * 2 (slides) * 3 Combats * 3 Rounds = 108 improved damage.

I personally think the Barbarian needed some extra damage to catch up with monks and rangers.

Agreed +1.

The Monk item looks like a hard miss with ranged FOB. They are no longer trading off high melee damage for a lower ranged damage. They just have high damage. You would think that without this trade off they should be middle of the pack, which they are not.

I am surprised to see this make it through the final process.

OrionW wrote: The Monk item looks like a hard miss with ranged FOB. They are no longer trading off high melee damage for a lower ranged damage. They just have high damage. You would think that without this trade off they should be middle of the pack, which they are not.

I am surprised to see this make it through the final process.

Agreed. With the +damage and ranged FoB getting moved out of the glove spot, I think you could drop the increased stun range entirely and everyone would still make this.

OrionW wrote: The Monk item looks like a hard miss with ranged FOB. They are no longer trading off high melee damage for a lower ranged damage. They just have high damage. You would think that without this trade off they should be middle of the pack, which they are not.

I am surprised to see this make it through the final process.

I'm surprised also. It's been stated pretty clearly that it the Monk will now have the highest damage melee and ranged out of all classes, and will only have to build their ST up to have a high "to hit" on both. It seems odd that isn't viewed as problematic. Especially in light of the extreme limitations on similar non-Monk URs (like one use per room on Fizzy Pack). There are a LOT of overpowered tokens in this set, but this on in particular (and the previous GoFF) seem to me to be the most broken.

OrionW wrote: The Monk item looks like a hard miss with ranged FOB. They are no longer trading off high melee damage for a lower ranged damage. They just have high damage. You would think that without this trade off they should be middle of the pack, which they are not.

I am surprised to see this make it through the final process.

Agreed. Ranged FoB is crazy strong.

Ironic, because there's a Rogue lobby that is screaming bloody murder over Lenses of Vital Insight.

Milambus (Jake) wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Milambus (Jake) wrote:

PalaDan wrote: We just wanna be better protectors.

Let us protect you, peeps!

Ok, a proposal for you then.

+1 to # guarded w/ Guard, -5 damage if you do (or -5 attack)

What if Guard included something like -5 AC to Paladin for every person guarded? That way, the thinner the Paladin stretches himself out guarding multiple people, the lower his AC is.

My initial idea was -1 Attack for each person guarded, because as you focus on guarding more people it gets harder to also attack effectively.

I'm guessing the proposed penalties would start on the 3rd Guard? Otherwise as worded it's penalizing the guard ability from the start, just for having the HA...also, not all paladins wear the AoG, how would it work in that case?

PalaDan wrote:

Rob F wrote:

PalaDan wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Fiddy wrote:

Rob F wrote:

PalaDan wrote: Still not understanding how the AoG/Guard on HA combo is being considered so unbalancing. Neither does the “free neck slot” argument.

Fighters will be able to equip their legendary with any weapon they choose, including Welfor’s.
Barbarians will be able to equip their legendary with any weapon they choose, including the deathcleaver.
Monks -> neck + Asher’s
Rangers -> neck + Io’s

They’re all getting bumps to their ability to attack. Extra guard bumps a paladin’s ability to defend.

Your correct that the classes you mentioned all will get to equip their Legendary weapon and their Legendary neck slot. The difference though is in the powers of the Legendary weapons beyond just the damage. Welfor's and Cleaver have none. Asher's two points of poison which most are immune to, and Io's extra crit range but a big stat to get there. With the HA you could make a case that just the powers of the sword alone could be combined into a powerful Token. And these powers are now being put on a weapon which takes up no slot. What Token could be made from the powers of the other Legendary weapons? +2 poison damage, so maybe a Rare at best. And 18-20 crit but must have 20 Dex. That's how I see there being a difference in the weapons. The HA as is will become the most powerful weapon ever created.

You're absolutely right, but part of issue hidden there is that Welfor's (at least) is weaker than it should be (given the classes it is restricted to and the weapons available with fewer restrictions). We didn't reign in Asher's or Thor's enough when they were made. Welfor's really ought to be bumped up (via some TokenDB errata) or replaced with a newer Legendary. But we're unlikely to get a new Legendary weapon for Fighters and their kin for several years, since next year the Fighters get their necklace.

I think it is somewhat appropriate for the HA to be the current most powerful weapon, at least until there is one that Fighters can use.

I wouldn't want to see a Paladin weapon more powerful than ones Fighters and Barbarians can use, since fighting is pretty much all those classes do, while the Paladin has other abilities. Like you said, it will likely be years before the Fighters get another Legendary weapon. Since this sword has so many other abilities, it's actual damage should be below the other Legendary weapons that don't have all the bonus abilities.

Again, we're comparing the HA to other legendary weapons in a vacuum. Yes, the HA will compound with AoG, but so will the older legendary weapons with the legendary neck slots:
Ranger with Io’s:
• 10-20 damage wheel
• Criticals on 18-20
• +4 Con
• +9 to damage with ranged attacks,
• 2 scrolls per game
• Animal friend
Barbarian with Averon’s:
• 8-21 damage wheel
• +10 to damage
• +1 Rage
• Fury 2/game
Monk with 1 Asher’s:
• 8-13 damage wheel (includes 2 poison damage)
• +6 FoB sacred damage
• Stun on 18-20
• FoB on ranged attacks
• T5 psy power
• +1 psy power
Bard with Wydseth’s – can equip Thor’s:
• 6-11 damage wheel
• Crit on 19-20
• Both melee and ranged w/returning
• +4 hit/damage for the entire party
• May perform any standard action while using bardsong
Druid with Drue’s:
• 6-13 or 6-18 damage wheel
• +5 to spells, healing and polymorph damage
• Polymorph into elemental as a free action (w/spells)
o DR against a chosen energy type
Paladin with Ava’s and the “free neck slot”:
• 6-14 damage wheel
• “20” kills Evil Outsider
• Grace 2/game
• +15 LoH
• +1 Guard 1/game
• Either +1 guard (AoG) or +3 Str/+4 Con

And we don't even know what the fighter/dwarf fighter necks will do yet.

This is not entirely accurate. What you are forgetting here is the loss of the current neck item for each class that equips the Legendary neck. So add to your data -3 Str, -4 Con for the Barbarian (losing Valhalla), same for Monk, maybe losing Stu's for the Ranger, etc. If you do that then you will have an accurate comparison across builds once all items are equipped.

Ok, let me put it another way - other classes are sacrificing a Rare/UR neck slot item in exchange for a legendary, so they'd have 2 legendaries (neck + weapon), whereas paladins are working with a legendary weapon and a neck slot that (as of right now) will never have a legendary upgrade for them.

I'll agree with that. But the other classes Legendary weapons don't do anything so they have: a +5 Item and then some powers (via Neck). These new powers are toned down a bit by loss of whatever they originally had in Neck. Vs. Pally that has +5 Item (so same as the others here), and then some powers (via Sword vs. Neck). But then they also have some more powers (via Neck). Plus there's an additional upside here for the Pally (and Bard) if a new Relic, Arcanum set piece, maybe a new Legendary TE with the Amulet of Treasure Finding, or whatever gets printed down the road and it's a Neck item. They won't have to make the hard choice the other classes will. But I know that's a big what if.