TOPIC: Transmuted 2020 Token Images - Final-ish

Flik wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Arnold wrote: If I'm not mistaken, all the Barbarian gets for moving to Relic is +1 Rage, +1 Fury. If that was the intention, I don't play Barbarian anyway....no harm, no foul.

But compared to his or her 2020 counterparts -

Monks gain +2 damage, expanded stunning fist, and ranged FoB 1/rm.

Rangers - I assume the 4 CON > 3 CON > 4 Con will be fixed. But otherwise, the Ranger gets +6 Sharpshooter damage and can read a Druid scroll.

Paladins - Gain +1 to hit, +1 damage, another starburst for Evil Outsiders, +10 to a heal, and 1 use of Grace.

Suggestion - consider giving the Barbarian relic +8 to 2-H damage.

That has some stacking risk since the Barbarian doesn't have to "move" to the Relic, he can outfit both the Relic and UR. That is an advantage of some of the classes that's been overlooked, how the UR and Relic/Legendary are additive. The Druid, for example, gets zero benefit from outfitting the UR in addition to the Relic/Legendary.

I understand it’s strong for barb but their upgrade from relic to legendary is not even worth close to the $800 it requires. Honestly I only see most using the relic.

Allow me to introduce you to:

tokendb.com/token/3-mithral-bracers/
tokendb.com/token/tamors-4-mithral-bracers/

Legendary gear is not trying to be the best bang for the buck. It's trying to be the absolute best gear where price is no object.

Reasonable gaps between Relic and Legendary are as low as +2/+2 to hit and damage, +2 AC, +2 STR, +2 to saves, etc.

+1 Rage and +1 Fury are definitely better than +2 AC.

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Flik wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Arnold wrote: If I'm not mistaken, all the Barbarian gets for moving to Relic is +1 Rage, +1 Fury. If that was the intention, I don't play Barbarian anyway....no harm, no foul.

But compared to his or her 2020 counterparts -

Monks gain +2 damage, expanded stunning fist, and ranged FoB 1/rm.

Rangers - I assume the 4 CON > 3 CON > 4 Con will be fixed. But otherwise, the Ranger gets +6 Sharpshooter damage and can read a Druid scroll.

Paladins - Gain +1 to hit, +1 damage, another starburst for Evil Outsiders, +10 to a heal, and 1 use of Grace.

Suggestion - consider giving the Barbarian relic +8 to 2-H damage.

That has some stacking risk since the Barbarian doesn't have to "move" to the Relic, he can outfit both the Relic and UR. That is an advantage of some of the classes that's been overlooked, how the UR and Relic/Legendary are additive. The Druid, for example, gets zero benefit from outfitting the UR in addition to the Relic/Legendary.

I understand it’s strong for barb but their upgrade from relic to legendary is not even worth close to the $800 it requires. Honestly I only see most using the relic.

Allow me to introduce you to:

tokendb.com/token/3-mithral-bracers/
tokendb.com/token/tamors-4-mithral-bracers/

Legendary gear is not trying to be the best bang for the buck. It's trying to be the absolute best gear where price is no object.

Reasonable gaps between Relic and Legendary are as low as +2/+2 to hit and damage, +2 AC, +2 STR, +2 to saves, etc.

+1 Rage and +1 Fury are definitely better than +2 AC.

Using what is generally agreed upon as the worst legendary, first printed 7 years ago, is not the greatest comparison.
Is +1 rage and +1 fury worth the investment? Hard to say. I agree that it seems better than +2 to hit and +2 to damage, which is a well established standard.

Unless one wants the absolute best of the best, I would agree, stopping at relic is usually the way to go.

PalaDan wrote:

Justice wrote:
There are far to many pressing concerns ..cough..PALADIN..cough

We just wanna be better protectors.

Let us protect you, peeps!

Ha Ha... its really funny that the paladins are begging "Let me be your shield" and the party is telling them to get to the back of the line because the monk has this STUNNING STRIKE!

Though to think of it I might switch to monk now and be a better / more consistent protector of the party.

MasterED wrote:

Mike Steele wrote: That has some stacking risk since the Barbarian doesn't have to "move" to the Relic, he can outfit both the Relic and UR. That is an advantage of some of the classes that's been overlooked, how the UR and Relic/Legendary are additive. The Druid, for example, gets zero benefit from outfitting the UR in addition to the Relic/Legendary.

Mike is bringing up a good point. At this time there are only Rare (+2) or lower DMG bonus items in the Wrist slot. By making this item we give a +4 DMG bonus to 2H Barb/Fighters/Paladin (the common 2Hers) and then allow stacking with a Relic or Legendary. This really means the Barbarian net bump for the Relic/Legendary with the UR would be +10/+14. We also have to consider this item when we do the Fighter's legendary next year.

This should probably be in the Hands slot where the competing items are:

Gloves of the Brute (+5 STR, -2 DEX)
Mithral Gauntlets (+4 STR)
Gauntlets of Linked Fury (+5 DMG when using two handed melee weapons)

+6 is better than +5 and the Barbarian wouldn't get the -2 AC penalty so it is clearly better for them.

Ed

So we can never have a UR wrists melee damage booster by this reasoning?

Eventually there will be one, and Barbarians will be able to wear it.

Might as well be now.

Monks will still out damage Barbarians, and do so at range.

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Flik wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Arnold wrote: If I'm not mistaken, all the Barbarian gets for moving to Relic is +1 Rage, +1 Fury. If that was the intention, I don't play Barbarian anyway....no harm, no foul.

But compared to his or her 2020 counterparts -

Monks gain +2 damage, expanded stunning fist, and ranged FoB 1/rm.

Rangers - I assume the 4 CON > 3 CON > 4 Con will be fixed. But otherwise, the Ranger gets +6 Sharpshooter damage and can read a Druid scroll.

Paladins - Gain +1 to hit, +1 damage, another starburst for Evil Outsiders, +10 to a heal, and 1 use of Grace.

Suggestion - consider giving the Barbarian relic +8 to 2-H damage.

That has some stacking risk since the Barbarian doesn't have to "move" to the Relic, he can outfit both the Relic and UR. That is an advantage of some of the classes that's been overlooked, how the UR and Relic/Legendary are additive. The Druid, for example, gets zero benefit from outfitting the UR in addition to the Relic/Legendary.

I understand it’s strong for barb but their upgrade from relic to legendary is not even worth close to the $800 it requires. Honestly I only see most using the relic.

Allow me to introduce you to:

tokendb.com/token/3-mithral-bracers/
tokendb.com/token/tamors-4-mithral-bracers/

Legendary gear is not trying to be the best bang for the buck. It's trying to be the absolute best gear where price is no object.

Reasonable gaps between Relic and Legendary are as low as +2/+2 to hit and damage, +2 AC, +2 STR, +2 to saves, etc.

+1 Rage and +1 Fury are definitely better than +2 AC.

Right. The original impetus for transmutes (combos originally) wasn't that people would be spending a bunch of money to get ingredients to transmute, it was that people had piles of tokens they had no use for them sitting around, and transmutes gave people the ability to turn the surplus tokens into something useful. So, from that perspective, the cost to transmute a Legendary shouldn't be looked at so much as how much it would cost to go and buy all those ingredients, but in how useful it is for people sitting on tons of tokens (trade item and normal). I do agree, for anyone that doesn't already have those ingredients, they would either have to make token purchases from TD to get them or buy the ingredients on the secondary market.

Matthew Hayward wrote:

MasterED wrote:

Mike Steele wrote: That has some stacking risk since the Barbarian doesn't have to "move" to the Relic, he can outfit both the Relic and UR. That is an advantage of some of the classes that's been overlooked, how the UR and Relic/Legendary are additive. The Druid, for example, gets zero benefit from outfitting the UR in addition to the Relic/Legendary.

Mike is bringing up a good point. At this time there are only Rare (+2) or lower DMG bonus items in the Wrist slot. By making this item we give a +4 DMG bonus to 2H Barb/Fighters/Paladin (the common 2Hers) and then allow stacking with a Relic or Legendary. This really means the Barbarian net bump for the Relic/Legendary with the UR would be +10/+14. We also have to consider this item when we do the Fighter's legendary next year.

This should probably be in the Hands slot where the competing items are:

Gloves of the Brute (+5 STR, -2 DEX)
Mithral Gauntlets (+4 STR)
Gauntlets of Linked Fury (+5 DMG when using two handed melee weapons)

+6 is better than +5 and the Barbarian wouldn't get the -2 AC penalty so it is clearly better for them.

Ed

So we can never have a UR wrists melee booster by this reasoning?

Eventually there will be one, and Barbarians will be able to wear it.

Might as well be now.

I would argue that given slot expanders in the wrist slot, there is very little reason to make anything else in the wrist slot as the slot expanders will almost always be the correct decision.

Endgame wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote:

MasterED wrote:

Mike Steele wrote: That has some stacking risk since the Barbarian doesn't have to "move" to the Relic, he can outfit both the Relic and UR. That is an advantage of some of the classes that's been overlooked, how the UR and Relic/Legendary are additive. The Druid, for example, gets zero benefit from outfitting the UR in addition to the Relic/Legendary.

Mike is bringing up a good point. At this time there are only Rare (+2) or lower DMG bonus items in the Wrist slot. By making this item we give a +4 DMG bonus to 2H Barb/Fighters/Paladin (the common 2Hers) and then allow stacking with a Relic or Legendary. This really means the Barbarian net bump for the Relic/Legendary with the UR would be +10/+14. We also have to consider this item when we do the Fighter's legendary next year.

This should probably be in the Hands slot where the competing items are:

Gloves of the Brute (+5 STR, -2 DEX)
Mithral Gauntlets (+4 STR)
Gauntlets of Linked Fury (+5 DMG when using two handed melee weapons)

+6 is better than +5 and the Barbarian wouldn't get the -2 AC penalty so it is clearly better for them.

Ed

So we can never have a UR wrists melee booster by this reasoning?

Eventually there will be one, and Barbarians will be able to wear it.

Might as well be now.

I would argue that given slot expanders in the wrist slot, there is very little reason to make anything else in the wrist slot as the slot expanders will almost always be the correct decision.

"Correct decision" doesnt seem quite right.
If the goal is highest stats AND money is no object, then you would be right.

I don't think we can safely assume the first part. I am certain we can't assume the 2nd part from our player base.

Matthew Hayward wrote: So we can never have a UR wrists melee damage booster by this reasoning?

Eventually there will be one, and Barbarians will be able to wear it.

Might as well be now.

Monks will still out damage Barbarians, and do so at range.

My statement should not cause you to reach a conclusion that there shouldn't be a damage based wrist item. There are already a few at Rare for +2. I just think jumping from +2 to +6 is extreme. +3 or +4 would be much more inline.

When I see +6 DMG (from Bracers which is a net +4 beyond a Rare), +10 from Legendary (just those two alone is +14) now double it twice per game due to Fury and you have just added +56 dps for the Barbarian. If you assume 3 combats of 3 rounds each then there is another 98 (14 * 7) points of damage added for the run to a total of 154 assuming all hits.

If all the Monk attacks hit (same 3 combats and 3 rounds all hits) we get +6 * 2 (slides) * 3 Combats * 3 Rounds = 108 improved damage.

These stats are all based upon everything else being equal. Yes a Monk might get a critical during that time which would be an extra 12 points. Still far below the near guaranteed 160 points of damage.

If the Bracers are moved to the hand then Barbarians are going to get (1 for the new hands, 10 for the legendary *2 Crits * 2 Fury which is 44 and 11 * 7 other combats 77 for the other 7 events) so 121 (much more inline).

If they were reduced to +3 bracers then we would be at 121 (44 + 77) which is exactly like the Monk improvement.
If they were reduced to +4 bracers then we would be at 132 (48 + 84) slightly better.

So my suggestion would be to either move them to the Hands (still an improvement especially for newer players). Or reduce the damage to +3 or the absolutely highest of +4. Jumping from +2 in the slot to +6 is not wise.

Ed

Note if I got any of the math wrong I apologize in advance - just please let me know and I will correct.

PalaDan wrote: We just wanna be better protectors.

Let us protect you, peeps!

Ok, a proposal for you then.

+1 to # guarded w/ Guard, -5 damage if you do (or -5 attack)

Regarding the Monk necklace:

MasterED wrote: When you upgrade to the Legendary - you don't need to worry then.

Ed

Many of us top out at 5 star relic for various reasons. Making a legendary isn't an option for everyone.

Still feel it's a step back from Gloves of Flying Fist and even Ring of the Drake for ranged fights.

Instead of repeating things Monks already have on other tokens (like GoFF, Ring of Stunning Fist) maybe pick another cool ability to put on the monk Relic/Legendary. Take it in a different direction.

MasterED wrote: My statement should not cause you to reach a conclusion that there shouldn't be a damage based wrist item. There are already a few at Rare for +2. I just think jumping from +2 to +6 is extreme. +3 or +4 would be much more inline.

The +2 damage bracers are usable by everyone. If we made a rare damage bracer that was restricted to 2-handers it should be +3 damage. (Good idea for next year btw)

+3 or +4 damage would be correct for a Ultra Rare if everyone could use them and there was no downside to the token. Making them +6 damage with -2 AC and restricted to 2-handed weapons seems right to me.

MasterED wrote: When I see +6 DMG (from Bracers which is a net +4 beyond a Rare), +10 from Legendary (just those two alone is +14) now double it twice per game due to Fury and you have just added +56 dps for the Barbarian. If you assume 3 combats of 3 rounds each then there is another 98 (14 * 7) points of damage added for the run to a total of 154 assuming all hits.

If all the Monk attacks hit (same 3 combats and 3 rounds all hits) we get +6 * 2 (slides) * 3 Combats * 3 Rounds = 108 improved damage.

I personally think the Barbarian needed some extra damage to catch up with monks and rangers.

Milambus (Jake) wrote:

PalaDan wrote: We just wanna be better protectors.

Let us protect you, peeps!

Ok, a proposal for you then.

+1 to # guarded w/ Guard, -5 damage if you do (or -5 attack)

I just don't think it needs any more nerfs.