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TOPIC: Transmuted 2020 Token Images - Final-ish

Transmuted 2020 Token Images - Final-ish 2 months 4 days ago #37

Matt Goodman wrote:

Mike Steele wrote: Ed, I agree. :)


A budding bromance is playing out 😏

And if you search previous forum posts you would realize how funny that really is!

Ed
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Transmuted 2020 Token Images - Final-ish 2 months 4 days ago #38

PalaDan wrote: Still not understanding how the AoG/Guard on HA combo is being considered so unbalancing. Neither does the “free neck slot” argument.

Fighters will be able to equip their legendary with any weapon they choose, including Welfor’s.
Barbarians will be able to equip their legendary with any weapon they choose, including the deathcleaver.
Monks -> neck + Asher’s
Rangers -> neck + Io’s

They’re all getting bumps to their ability to attack. Extra guard bumps a paladin’s ability to defend.


Your correct that the classes you mentioned all will get to equip their Legendary weapon and their Legendary neck slot. The difference though is in the powers of the Legendary weapons beyond just the damage. Welfor's and Cleaver have none. Asher's two points of poison which most are immune to, and Io's extra crit range but a big stat to get there. With the HA you could make a case that just the powers of the sword alone could be combined into a powerful Token. And these powers are now being put on a weapon which takes up no slot. What Token could be made from the powers of the other Legendary weapons? +2 poison damage, so maybe a Rare at best. And 18-20 crit but must have 20 Dex. That's how I see there being a difference in the weapons. The HA as is will become the most powerful weapon ever created.
"Imagination is more important than knowledge. Knowledge is limited. Imagination encircles the world." - Albert Einstein
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Transmuted 2020 Token Images - Final-ish 2 months 4 days ago #39

Rob F wrote: The HA as is will become the most powerful weapon ever created.

PREACH brother! ;-)

Ed
Useful Links:
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Transmuted 2020 Token Images - Final-ish 2 months 4 days ago #40

Rob F wrote:

PalaDan wrote: Still not understanding how the AoG/Guard on HA combo is being considered so unbalancing. Neither does the “free neck slot” argument.

Fighters will be able to equip their legendary with any weapon they choose, including Welfor’s.
Barbarians will be able to equip their legendary with any weapon they choose, including the deathcleaver.
Monks -> neck + Asher’s
Rangers -> neck + Io’s

They’re all getting bumps to their ability to attack. Extra guard bumps a paladin’s ability to defend.


Your correct that the classes you mentioned all will get to equip their Legendary weapon and their Legendary neck slot. The difference though is in the powers of the Legendary weapons beyond just the damage. Welfor's and Cleaver have none. Asher's two points of poison which most are immune to, and Io's extra crit range but a big stat to get there. With the HA you could make a case that just the powers of the sword alone could be combined into a powerful Token. And these powers are now being put on a weapon which takes up no slot. What Token could be made from the powers of the other Legendary weapons? +2 poison damage, so maybe a Rare at best. And 18-20 crit but must have 20 Dex. That's how I see there being a difference in the weapons. The HA as is will become the most powerful weapon ever created.


You're absolutely right, but part of issue hidden there is that Welfor's (at least) is weaker than it should be (given the classes it is restricted to and the weapons available with fewer restrictions). We didn't reign in Asher's or Thor's enough when they were made. Welfor's really ought to be bumped up (via some TokenDB errata) or replaced with a newer Legendary. But we're unlikely to get a new Legendary weapon for Fighters and their kin for several years, since next year the Fighters get their necklace.

I think it is somewhat appropriate for the HA to be the current most powerful weapon, at least until there is one that Fighters can use.
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Transmuted 2020 Token Images - Final-ish 2 months 4 days ago #41

Matt Goodman wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

MasterED wrote:

Mike Steele wrote: That has some stacking risk since the Barbarian doesn't have to "move" to the Relic, he can outfit both the Relic and UR. That is an advantage of some of the classes that's been overlooked, how the UR and Relic/Legendary are additive. The Druid, for example, gets zero benefit from outfitting the UR in addition to the Relic/Legendary.


Mike is bringing up a good point. At this time there are only Rare (+2) or lower DMG bonus items in the Wrist slot. By making this item we give a +4 DMG bonus to 2H Barb/Fighters/Paladin (the common 2Hers) and then allow stacking with a Relic or Legendary. This really means the Barbarian net bump for the Relic/Legendary with the UR would be +10/+14. We also have to consider this item when we do the Fighter's legendary next year.

This should probably be in the Hands slot where the competing items are:

Gloves of the Brute (+5 STR, -2 DEX)
Mithral Gauntlets (+4 STR)
Gauntlets of Linked Fury (+5 DMG when using two handed melee weapons)

+6 is better than +5 and the Barbarian wouldn't get the -2 AC penalty so it is clearly better for them.

Ed


Ed, I agree. :)


A budding bromance is playing out 😏


And here I was thinking it was a sign of the apocalypse
First ever death in True Horde
"Well, with you guarding 2 players, that means you take 90. Are you dead?"
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My token shop/trade thread: Wade's Wide World of Wonder 

My Current Paladin Build 
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Transmuted 2020 Token Images - Final-ish 2 months 4 days ago #42

Rob F wrote:

PalaDan wrote: Still not understanding how the AoG/Guard on HA combo is being considered so unbalancing. Neither does the “free neck slot” argument.

Fighters will be able to equip their legendary with any weapon they choose, including Welfor’s.
Barbarians will be able to equip their legendary with any weapon they choose, including the deathcleaver.
Monks -> neck + Asher’s
Rangers -> neck + Io’s

They’re all getting bumps to their ability to attack. Extra guard bumps a paladin’s ability to defend.


Your correct that the classes you mentioned all will get to equip their Legendary weapon and their Legendary neck slot. The difference though is in the powers of the Legendary weapons beyond just the damage. Welfor's and Cleaver have none. Asher's two points of poison which most are immune to, and Io's extra crit range but a big stat to get there. With the HA you could make a case that just the powers of the sword alone could be combined into a powerful Token. And these powers are now being put on a weapon which takes up no slot. What Token could be made from the powers of the other Legendary weapons? +2 poison damage, so maybe a Rare at best. And 18-20 crit but must have 20 Dex. That's how I see there being a difference in the weapons. The HA as is will become the most powerful weapon ever created.


I think you're looking at this the wrong way. It's not about what powers you could take off the old legendary weapons, but rather what powers will be added through the legendary neck slots, which paladins won't get.
Last edit: by PalaDan.
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Transmuted 2020 Token Images - Final-ish 2 months 4 days ago #43

Like the Paladin class itself, its a jack of all trades, master of none.
The damage wheel is weaker than most of/ all the other relics + weapons; the added healing is easily replicated; the +1 guard to Melee for one room is pretty limited as most if not all will have to wait for the final room *and sometimes thats a puzzle if Im not mistaken?* and how often will we see an EO after E3? One could make an argument that in many dungeons, its one of the weakest Class specific Legendaries available/ planned. I know I've only been playing 2 years, but is this thinking that far off base?



[/quote] The HA as is will become the most powerful weapon ever created.[/quote]
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Last edit: by Brad F.
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Transmuted 2020 Token Images - Final-ish 2 months 4 days ago #44

Mike Steele wrote:

MasterED wrote:

Mike Steele wrote: That has some stacking risk since the Barbarian doesn't have to "move" to the Relic, he can outfit both the Relic and UR. That is an advantage of some of the classes that's been overlooked, how the UR and Relic/Legendary are additive. The Druid, for example, gets zero benefit from outfitting the UR in addition to the Relic/Legendary.


Mike is bringing up a good point. At this time there are only Rare (+2) or lower DMG bonus items in the Wrist slot. By making this item we give a +4 DMG bonus to 2H Barb/Fighters/Paladin (the common 2Hers) and then allow stacking with a Relic or Legendary. This really means the Barbarian net bump for the Relic/Legendary with the UR would be +10/+14. We also have to consider this item when we do the Fighter's legendary next year.

This should probably be in the Hands slot where the competing items are:

Gloves of the Brute (+5 STR, -2 DEX)
Mithral Gauntlets (+4 STR)
Gauntlets of Linked Fury (+5 DMG when using two handed melee weapons)

+6 is better than +5 and the Barbarian wouldn't get the -2 AC penalty so it is clearly better for them.

Ed


Ed, I agree. :)


I Agree.

I also suggested moving this to the gloves spot in 4 different revisions and it didn't move, so I gave up.
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Transmuted 2020 Token Images - Final-ish 2 months 4 days ago #45

All the HA will stack with is the UR AoG. Every class with a neck legendary can stack theirs with whatever legendary weapon they choose. The HA only looks like it's the most powerful if you're looking at it in a vacuum that ignores how the neck slot legendaries will play off of other existing legendaries.
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Transmuted 2020 Token Images - Final-ish 2 months 4 days ago #46

I just read over the grace update...I think its better and more paladin like with the flat save bonus gives you more of that paladin aura feel...the only thing I would have changed on that would be to make the relic +3 to saves and the legendary +5 if your limiting it to 2 times per game or hell even once per room would not be too over powered it only last for one roll...or you could make it last the whole room then the +2 and +3 would feel better... thant just my opinion FWIW..other wise I think the holy avenger was a wonderful idea and I am super excited to see it in TD
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Transmuted 2020 Token Images - Final-ish 2 months 4 days ago #47

The discussion on the Relic and Legendary items is really eclipsing the 3* and 4* transmutes.

Putting some attention to those for a moment:

Lenses of the Owl: Is currently a reprint of the Lenses of Accuracy. Can this be be name changed to Lenses of Accuracy?

Ring of Stamina:
Still not a fan of only +2 con. If there is no desire to have a +fort save on this, can it go back to +3 con?
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Transmuted 2020 Token Images - Final-ish 2 months 4 days ago #48

Endgame wrote: Lenses of the Owl: Is currently a reprint of the Lenses of Accuracy. Can this be be name changed to Lenses of Accuracy?

Agreed - and make the recipe similar but current.

Endgame wrote: Ring of Stamina:
Still not a fan of only +2 con. If there is no desire to have a +fort save on this, can it go back to +3 con?

Generally a 4 start is a bit weaker than a UR so if you make it +3 CON it will be similar to the Cloak (which should be +3 as well) without a modifier but in the Ring slot. So it probably needs a small negative like -1 Reflex save.

Ed
Useful Links:
TD Character Creator
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TD Accomplishments:
Member of the first team to survive Epic True Grind
1st Solo NM as Poly Druid
Proud member of Gas Station Sushi
Don't Nerf Our Tokens!
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