TOPIC: Transmuted 2020 Token Images - Final-ish

I know this is really late to the party but I'd like to see the HA look like this:
effects and connection to Paladin traits
+1 Enhanced Guard entire game (aura of protection) perhaps limit stacking to 2 players total but guard covers Melee AND ranged/ spell attacks. Additional guarded player must be announced at beginning of game. AoG would be part of the recipe.
+1/2 hit for party (inspirational leadership)
Grace for party 1/ game (aura of salvation)
+7 damage to evil creatures (it is supposed to be a legendary weapon after all, 7 is a Holy number)

Drop the auto-kill- 1 its only EOs which may very well not be seen much past the E series, 2 would take away from the fun of the group combat if the Paladin slays the EO creature on the first hit and it had 200 HP.
Drop extra LOH- 5th level paladin has a good amount already and other classes can heal cheaper as previously noted.

PalaDan wrote: Disappointed that the HA is missing full guard. I really want my paladin to wield a HA, but I can’t justify the expenditure for what amounts to Grace and some healing that a cleric/druid/bard can duplicate with a couple of $4 rare tokens.

I think i may have figured out the disconnect on balancing the holy avenger. It isnt just an issue of being powerful enough to be worth a legendary, it needs to spark a 'WANT!' reaction from paladin players.

Last year, all three legendaries gave me that feeling. This year:
Barbarian with 2H focus wants new item, more damage, more rage, new fury. RAR!
Monk has damage, stun ability, ranged fists, and nice nod to strong mind.
Ranged ranger gets a big damage boost and animal companion is just cool...and some CON to keep up power to compare.

Then paladin...well, this is definitely better than other legendary weapons for paladin. You give up a little damage but gain the cool grace power. That is totally worth it. BUT, for those who dont regularly make legendary items, the holy avenger doesnt have the same enticement as the other class legendaries. Sure, if a person decided to make a legendary weapon for a paladin, they choose this. But if they are just equipping a paladin without unlimited funds, the holy avenger doesnt scream 'must have'. If +guard were all the time, it would be a must have item...even at the cost of removing bonus lay on hands.

Mike Steele wrote:

Arnold wrote: If I'm not mistaken, all the Barbarian gets for moving to Relic is +1 Rage, +1 Fury. If that was the intention, I don't play Barbarian anyway....no harm, no foul.

But compared to his or her 2020 counterparts -

Monks gain +2 damage, expanded stunning fist, and ranged FoB 1/rm.

Rangers - I assume the 4 CON > 3 CON > 4 Con will be fixed. But otherwise, the Ranger gets +6 Sharpshooter damage and can read a Druid scroll.

Paladins - Gain +1 to hit, +1 damage, another starburst for Evil Outsiders, +10 to a heal, and 1 use of Grace.

Suggestion - consider giving the Barbarian relic +8 to 2-H damage.

That has some stacking risk since the Barbarian doesn't have to "move" to the Relic, he can outfit both the Relic and UR. That is an advantage of some of the classes that's been overlooked, how the UR and Relic/Legendary are additive. The Druid, for example, gets zero benefit from outfitting the UR in addition to the Relic/Legendary.

While I agree with the spirit of what you’re saying, Monks gained nothing from the Druid UR, and Druids gain +2 damage from the Monk UR.

The Barbarian UR and Legendary equal the Monk combination, and they can wield the monk UR to outpace if they would like. They don’t get returning shuriken but I have a feeling they’ll prefer a mighty sling anyway as it can use ammo.

While the 7 => 6 and the PT-5 now is weaker, I still think the Monk is fine. I would hate to see it diminish more.

I very much like the change to the Ranger. I was wondering why the forcing function on ammo, and didn’t give the ammo back like the Druid, when they have an ability use other consumables (Potions) being added to their character.

On the Holy Avenger, I would ask that the guarding amulet be considered for reprint in the next few years with the ability to guard additional on the HA only once per Dungeon. This allows newer players access since that UR is likely not freeing up. If the ability were increased to 2 so 2/3 of combats were covered like the Barbarian Fury that request might not be needed.

I really like these tokens, this is true of the whole set. The puzzling interactions in token build are very exciting, now I just need to convince my wife to let me buy a few more this year.

Edit
I missed grace is 2d20, I’m on board as is.

Still not understanding how the AoG/Guard on HA combo is being considered so unbalancing. Neither does the “free neck slot” argument.

Fighters will be able to equip their legendary with any weapon they choose, including Welfor’s.
Barbarians will be able to equip their legendary with any weapon they choose, including the deathcleaver.
Monks -> neck + Asher’s
Rangers -> neck + Io’s

They’re all getting bumps to their ability to attack. Extra guard bumps a paladin’s ability to defend.

Point of Order:

With the Cloak of the Elm having a +4 Con, shouldn't the Pendant of the Yew be +4 Con also, making Ralson's Pendant of the Elder Yew +5 Con.

kurtreznor wrote: I think i may have figured out the disconnect on balancing the holy avenger. It isnt just an issue of being powerful enough to be worth a legendary, it needs to spark a 'WANT!' reaction from paladin players.

Last year, all three legendaries gave me that feeling. This year:
Barbarian with 2H focus wants new item, more damage, more rage, new fury. RAR!
Monk has damage, stun ability, ranged fists, and nice nod to strong mind.
Ranged ranger gets a big damage boost and animal companion is just cool...and some CON to keep up power to compare.

Then paladin...well, this is definitely better than other legendary weapons for paladin. You give up a little damage but gain the cool grace power. That is totally worth it. BUT, for those who dont regularly make legendary items, the holy avenger doesnt have the same enticement as the other class legendaries. Sure, if a person decided to make a legendary weapon for a paladin, they choose this. But if they are just equipping a paladin without unlimited funds, the holy avenger doesnt scream 'must have'. If +guard were all the time, it would be a must have item...even at the cost of removing bonus lay on hands.

+1 Bump

+1 Guard for the whole Dungeon seems a lot more balanced. Its just for 3 to 4 rooms, and there's an UR that does this. Only once per game seems quite under-powered. Give the Legendary +1 # people Guarded and let people decide if its worth the next slot sacrifice to get another +1.

Mike Steele wrote: That has some stacking risk since the Barbarian doesn't have to "move" to the Relic, he can outfit both the Relic and UR. That is an advantage of some of the classes that's been overlooked, how the UR and Relic/Legendary are additive. The Druid, for example, gets zero benefit from outfitting the UR in addition to the Relic/Legendary.

Mike is bringing up a good point. At this time there are only Rare (+2) or lower DMG bonus items in the Wrist slot. By making this item we give a +4 DMG bonus to 2H Barb/Fighters/Paladin (the common 2Hers) and then allow stacking with a Relic or Legendary. This really means the Barbarian net bump for the Relic/Legendary with the UR would be +10/+14. We also have to consider this item when we do the Fighter's legendary next year.

This should probably be in the Hands slot where the competing items are:

Gloves of the Brute (+5 STR, -2 DEX)
Mithral Gauntlets (+4 STR)
Gauntlets of Linked Fury (+5 DMG when using two handed melee weapons)

+6 is better than +5 and the Barbarian wouldn't get the -2 AC penalty so it is clearly better for them.

Ed

Aothos wrote: Point of Order:

With the Cloak of the Elm having a +4 Con, shouldn't the Pendant of the Yew be +4 Con also, making Ralson's Pendant of the Elder Yew +5 Con.

the UR should be +3 CON.

There is only the Beserker Cloak UC which is +2 CON, -2 AC. That would put the Rare at the +2 CON level (no penalty), so a UR would be +3 CON.

Do not adjust the Relic/Legendary up - put the UR Cloak back down to +3 CON.

Ed

Aothos wrote: Point of Order:

With the Cloak of the Elm having a +4 Con, shouldn't the Pendant of the Yew be +4 Con also, making Ralson's Pendant of the Elder Yew +5 Con.

Or just +4 -> +4 -> +4

David Harris wrote: I know others are praising the changes to the Necklace of the Spirit Drake. But to me this just went from a must have to a probably won't make.

Reasoning: Previous versions allowed for FOB at range at all times. This effectively removed the need for Gloves of Flying Fist and also the Ring of Stunning Fist (stun on 19-20). So for giving up the neck slot, 2 slots are freed up plus +4 sacred, nice.

New gloves and a ring could do a lot of different things. But now to make the FOB at range effective, I must keep the Gloves of Flying Fist, which means I'm not using the Necklace's once a room power. So I'm only reclaiming one ring slot. Not sure the relic has a better pay off than, what my Monk currently equips: Amulet of the Champion (+2 Str/+2 Dex/+2 Con or +1 hit/dmg melee, +1 hit ranged, +1 AC, + 1 reflex/fort save, and +4/5 hp). Even with +4 sacred dmg, i'm not sure any ring replaces all that. But give me the gloves slot now we are getting closer....I'd probably make the trade for the flexibility it provides and a nice damage bump.

Isn't a 5 point Relic suppose to be better than an UR....not sure it is here.

(Edit: And I know this does step up with the Legendary, Relic is still not good enough IMHO)

I actually think it is good. Ranged monsters are less frequent than melee so what this means is you can still equip some good gloves (added damage) say +2 or +3 - and only miss out of a round or two of combat. If you don't want to miss out grab some Potions of Leaping Attack for those infrequent times. Or you could just through Shurikens (and if you have the Ring you only need 2). Plus you are getting the +4 damage from the Relic. If you want to play it safe - yes you can use the GotFF and skip the +2/+3 damage. Your call.

When you upgrade to the Legendary - you don't need to worry then.

Ed

MasterED wrote:

Mike Steele wrote: That has some stacking risk since the Barbarian doesn't have to "move" to the Relic, he can outfit both the Relic and UR. That is an advantage of some of the classes that's been overlooked, how the UR and Relic/Legendary are additive. The Druid, for example, gets zero benefit from outfitting the UR in addition to the Relic/Legendary.

Mike is bringing up a good point. At this time there are only Rare (+2) or lower DMG bonus items in the Wrist slot. By making this item we give a +4 DMG bonus to 2H Barb/Fighters/Paladin (the common 2Hers) and then allow stacking with a Relic or Legendary. This really means the Barbarian net bump for the Relic/Legendary with the UR would be +10/+14. We also have to consider this item when we do the Fighter's legendary next year.

This should probably be in the Hands slot where the competing items are:

Gloves of the Brute (+5 STR, -2 DEX)
Mithral Gauntlets (+4 STR)
Gauntlets of Linked Fury (+5 DMG when using two handed melee weapons)

+6 is better than +5 and the Barbarian wouldn't get the -2 AC penalty so it is clearly better for them.

Ed

Ed, I agree.

Mike Steele wrote:

MasterED wrote:

Mike Steele wrote: That has some stacking risk since the Barbarian doesn't have to "move" to the Relic, he can outfit both the Relic and UR. That is an advantage of some of the classes that's been overlooked, how the UR and Relic/Legendary are additive. The Druid, for example, gets zero benefit from outfitting the UR in addition to the Relic/Legendary.

Mike is bringing up a good point. At this time there are only Rare (+2) or lower DMG bonus items in the Wrist slot. By making this item we give a +4 DMG bonus to 2H Barb/Fighters/Paladin (the common 2Hers) and then allow stacking with a Relic or Legendary. This really means the Barbarian net bump for the Relic/Legendary with the UR would be +10/+14. We also have to consider this item when we do the Fighter's legendary next year.

This should probably be in the Hands slot where the competing items are:

Gloves of the Brute (+5 STR, -2 DEX)
Mithral Gauntlets (+4 STR)
Gauntlets of Linked Fury (+5 DMG when using two handed melee weapons)

+6 is better than +5 and the Barbarian wouldn't get the -2 AC penalty so it is clearly better for them.

Ed

Ed, I agree.

A budding bromance is playing out 😏