TOPIC: Transmuted 2020 Token Images - Final-ish

Bump up the damage on the Ranger Legendary to +10 to match the Barbarian?

I would prefer the monk relic to grant attacking at Ranged for a whole room once per dungeon, but I suspect the limit of once per room is on purpose.

If I'm not mistaken, all the Barbarian gets for moving to Relic is +1 Rage, +1 Fury. If that was the intention, I don't play Barbarian anyway....no harm, no foul.

But compared to his or her 2020 counterparts -

Monks gain +2 damage, expanded stunning fist, and ranged FoB 1/rm.

Rangers - I assume the 4 CON > 3 CON > 4 Con will be fixed. But otherwise, the Ranger gets +6 Sharpshooter damage and can read a Druid scroll.

Paladins - Gain +1 to hit, +1 damage, another starburst for Evil Outsiders, +10 to a heal, and 1 use of Grace.

Suggestion - consider giving the Barbarian relic +8 to 2-H damage.

Arnold wrote: If I'm not mistaken, all the Barbarian gets for moving to Relic is +1 Rage, +1 Fury. If that was the intention, I don't play Barbarian anyway....no harm, no foul.

But compared to his or her 2020 counterparts -

Monks gain +2 damage, expanded stunning fist, and ranged FoB 1/rm.
-2 ranged damage
-2 spell damage (whatever that does for monks)
-returning shurikens

Rangers - I assume the 4 CON > 3 CON > 4 Con will be fixed. But otherwise, the Ranger gets +6 Sharpshooter damage and can read a Druid scroll.

Paladins - Gain +1 to hit, +1 damage, another starburst for Evil Outsiders, +10 to a heal, and 1 use of Grace.

Suggestion - consider giving the Barbarian relic +8 to 2-H damage.

I fixed the monk comparison for you.

For the record, scrolls for a Ranger are cool but the Ranger won't or can't have all the things that increase scroll damage so there would be little harm in eliminating the 2 times per game restriction. This would have the bonus of cleaning up the token by eliminating more words and not really breaking the game open. Otherwise, it is fantastic.

Arnold wrote: If I'm not mistaken, all the Barbarian gets for moving to Relic is +1 Rage, +1 Fury. If that was the intention, I don't play Barbarian anyway....no harm, no foul.

But compared to his or her 2020 counterparts -

Monks gain +2 damage, expanded stunning fist, and ranged FoB 1/rm.

Rangers - I assume the 4 CON > 3 CON > 4 Con will be fixed. But otherwise, the Ranger gets +6 Sharpshooter damage and can read a Druid scroll.

Paladins - Gain +1 to hit, +1 damage, another starburst for Evil Outsiders, +10 to a heal, and 1 use of Grace.

Suggestion - consider giving the Barbarian relic +8 to 2-H damage.

That has some stacking risk since the Barbarian doesn't have to "move" to the Relic, he can outfit both the Relic and UR. That is an advantage of some of the classes that's been overlooked, how the UR and Relic/Legendary are additive. The Druid, for example, gets zero benefit from outfitting the UR in addition to the Relic/Legendary.

archmage78 wrote: For the record, scrolls for a Ranger are cool but the Ranger won't or can't have all the things that increase scroll damage so there would be little harm in eliminating the 2 times per game restriction. This would have the bonus of cleaning up the token by eliminating more words and not really breaking the game open. Otherwise, it is fantastic.

Keeping limits on it would help keep the lines of the classes from blurring further. It would seem pretty wrong for the Ranger to somehow have exactly the same Scroll Reading skills as the Druid at Relic, and the same Scroll reading skills as the Cleric, Wizard and Druid combined with the Legendary.

Mike Steele wrote:

Arnold wrote: If I'm not mistaken, all the Barbarian gets for moving to Relic is +1 Rage, +1 Fury. If that was the intention, I don't play Barbarian anyway....no harm, no foul.

But compared to his or her 2020 counterparts -

Monks gain +2 damage, expanded stunning fist, and ranged FoB 1/rm.

Rangers - I assume the 4 CON > 3 CON > 4 Con will be fixed. But otherwise, the Ranger gets +6 Sharpshooter damage and can read a Druid scroll.

Paladins - Gain +1 to hit, +1 damage, another starburst for Evil Outsiders, +10 to a heal, and 1 use of Grace.

Suggestion - consider giving the Barbarian relic +8 to 2-H damage.

That has some stacking risk since the Barbarian doesn't have to "move" to the Relic, he can outfit both the Relic and UR. That is an advantage of some of the classes that's been overlooked, how the UR and Relic/Legendary are additive. The Druid, for example, gets zero benefit from outfitting the UR in addition to the Relic/Legendary.

This may be the new form of sleaze we argue about in a few years. IMO if you are benefiting from an upgraded transmute you shouldn't be able to use the base form too (weapons as an exception for the dual wielding classes)

Disappointed that the HA is missing full guard. I really want my paladin to wield a HA, but I can’t justify the expenditure for what amounts to Grace and some healing that a cleric/druid/bard can duplicate with a couple of $4 rare tokens.

Mike Steele wrote:

Arnold wrote: If I'm not mistaken, all the Barbarian gets for moving to Relic is +1 Rage, +1 Fury. If that was the intention, I don't play Barbarian anyway....no harm, no foul.

But compared to his or her 2020 counterparts -

Monks gain +2 damage, expanded stunning fist, and ranged FoB 1/rm.

Rangers - I assume the 4 CON > 3 CON > 4 Con will be fixed. But otherwise, the Ranger gets +6 Sharpshooter damage and can read a Druid scroll.

Paladins - Gain +1 to hit, +1 damage, another starburst for Evil Outsiders, +10 to a heal, and 1 use of Grace.

Suggestion - consider giving the Barbarian relic +8 to 2-H damage.

That has some stacking risk since the Barbarian doesn't have to "move" to the Relic, he can outfit both the Relic and UR. That is an advantage of some of the classes that's been overlooked, how the UR and Relic/Legendary are additive. The Druid, for example, gets zero benefit from outfitting the UR in addition to the Relic/Legendary.

I understand it’s strong for barb but their upgrade from relic to legendary is not even worth close to the $800 it requires. Honestly I only see most using the relic.

So for not having a great upgrade to legendary I don’t see a problem with letting them have the bracers.

Picc wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Arnold wrote: If I'm not mistaken, all the Barbarian gets for moving to Relic is +1 Rage, +1 Fury. If that was the intention, I don't play Barbarian anyway....no harm, no foul.

But compared to his or her 2020 counterparts -

Monks gain +2 damage, expanded stunning fist, and ranged FoB 1/rm.

Rangers - I assume the 4 CON > 3 CON > 4 Con will be fixed. But otherwise, the Ranger gets +6 Sharpshooter damage and can read a Druid scroll.

Paladins - Gain +1 to hit, +1 damage, another starburst for Evil Outsiders, +10 to a heal, and 1 use of Grace.

Suggestion - consider giving the Barbarian relic +8 to 2-H damage.

That has some stacking risk since the Barbarian doesn't have to "move" to the Relic, he can outfit both the Relic and UR. That is an advantage of some of the classes that's been overlooked, how the UR and Relic/Legendary are additive. The Druid, for example, gets zero benefit from outfitting the UR in addition to the Relic/Legendary.

This may be the new form of sleaze we argue about in a few years. IMO if you are benefiting from an upgraded transmute you shouldn't be able to use the base form too (weapons as an exception for the dual wielding classes)

I'd be OK with a restriction about using the UR and Relic/Legendary at the same time that being implemented now. It might be tough to enforce, maybe some Coaches wouldn't even realize they were in the same path.

PalaDan wrote: Disappointed that the HA is missing full guard. I really want my paladin to wield a HA, but I can’t justify the expenditure for what amounts to Grace and some healing that a cleric/druid/bard can duplicate with a couple of $4 rare tokens.

+1
I’m just going to keep rolling with Thor’s myself.

I know others are praising the changes to the Necklace of the Spirit Drake. But to me this just went from a must have to a probably won't make.

Reasoning: Previous versions allowed for FOB at range at all times. This effectively removed the need for Gloves of Flying Fist and also the Ring of Stunning Fist (stun on 19-20). So for giving up the neck slot, 2 slots are freed up plus +4 sacred, nice.

New gloves and a ring could do a lot of different things. But now to make the FOB at range effective, I must keep the Gloves of Flying Fist, which means I'm not using the Necklace's once a room power. So I'm only reclaiming one ring slot. Not sure the relic has a better pay off than, what my Monk currently equips: Amulet of the Champion (+2 Str/+2 Dex/+2 Con or +1 hit/dmg melee, +1 hit ranged, +1 AC, + 1 reflex/fort save, and +4/5 hp). Even with +4 sacred dmg, i'm not sure any ring replaces all that. But give me the gloves slot now we are getting closer....I'd probably make the trade for the flexibility it provides and a nice damage bump.

Isn't a 5 point Relic suppose to be better than an UR....not sure it is here.

(Edit: And I know this does step up with the Legendary, Relic is still not good enough IMHO)