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TOPIC: Ultra Rare 2020 Token Images - Final-ish

Ultra Rare 2020 Token Images - Final-ish 4 months 3 weeks ago #49

Picc wrote: We could also dust off an old idea from the year the lenses first saw print.

UR, +X shortbow of coolname: Rogues may sneak attack with THIS weapon.

Not powerful enough, make it Nightshade's boom done

That way new sneak attack rogues only need 1 UR, we can set the power where we like and the option to ranged sneak with anything still exists for the legendary crowd if they want to track down vital insight


Hey, I would *so* get behind the idea of a UR weapon with baked-in "You may Sneak Attack at Ranged"... I was gonna pick up the Rare-level Assassin's Blade for this exact reason.

But since the Assassin's Blade now exists.. do we need a UR equivalent?

Or, do we need it *this year*? ... We have all next year to think up cool tokens, too.
"THERE WILL NEVER BE A TOKEN EQUAL TO A GOOD BRAIN!"- Smakdown

Check out these awesome resources:
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Ultra Rare 2020 Token Images - Final-ish 4 months 3 weeks ago #50

Thanks for the response Raven!

I just looked and the +1 Mighty Shortbow was printed in 2010!

It would be nice to have that UR be reprinted to give rogues a chance to better utilize this token as written. (Or perhaps a promise that UR will be printed next year so one still has the chance to get the combo?)
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Ultra Rare 2020 Token Images - Final-ish 4 months 3 weeks ago #51

Joshua Long wrote: Thanks for the response Raven!

I just looked and the +1 Mighty Shortbow was printed in 2010!

It would be nice to have that UR be reprinted to give rogues a chance to better utilize this token as written. (Or perhaps a promise that UR will be printed next year so one still has the chance to get the combo?)

Drop the Pants of the Panther and reprint the +1 Mighty Shortbow?

Ed
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Ultra Rare 2020 Token Images - Final-ish 4 months 3 weeks ago #52

Jinto wrote: I agree with Filk & others as I'm also pretty bummed and confused as to why the lenses were restricted to only shortbows. I've been thinking hoping to play a dex rogue for many years, but I fear I'll have to keep waiting if items that allow for variation and experimentation are restricted. Rogues only have access to 11 shortbows: 5 of them common, 0 uncommon, 2 rare, 2 combo, and 2 UR (2007 and 2010). This is in contrast to the 32 crossbows, slings, blowguns, & guns.

I would change the token from limiting the ranged weapons to only shortbows back to allowing all ranged weapons as the previous versions were, removing the bonus to dexterity if to be inline with the previous printing. Or if the token needs to be different from the previous printing then perhaps only allow showbows, crossbows, and hand-crossbows, all weapons with a very roguish flavor.


Oh, yeah, i forgot about all those other ranged items. I started to think maybe it should be non-thrown weapons allowed, but throwing daggers are very rogue-ish, so...i dont know, just allow all ranged, even though thors hammer will be sneaky sometimes. Maybe just resolve to create a better rogue ranged legendary weapon a few years from now.
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Ultra Rare 2020 Token Images - Final-ish 4 months 3 weeks ago #53

I suppose I didnt co sider the idea of keeping ranged sneak attack away from both Thor's and Assassin's crossbow with a legendary rogue necklace.

Saying "anyone who wants one has likely been able to track one down on the secondary market" definitely feels like another way of saying "we dont care if newer players want what older players have" to me. I know it isnt that, and words matter, but that is how it feels.

I would like to see either
A. A straight reprint
2. +2 DeX or rogue may sneak attack at range (better for newbie random 10 pack openers in general, otherwise not awesome)
3. The last 5 set versions, +/- a trade in option.
4. Adding in crossbows +/- slings

I really think this didn't need a nerf and that the trade in, while nice, was unnecessary. The other thread did a good job of convincing me a trade in was the right decision for TD and the player base though.

If I were to open this in a 10 pack, I would be underwhelmed to begin with (+2 DeX, while nice, isn't nearly as important as +2 Strength) I like the idea of giving new players a different way to build a rogue, not limiting it

I agree, the mighty sling should stay, which means we probably don't need another ranged weapon at rare. Can one throw the assassin's dagger?
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Ultra Rare 2020 Token Images - Final-ish 4 months 3 weeks ago #54

Matt Goodman wrote: My Thoughts
Alright. So Raven, you're contradicting yourself here. The mighty shortbow was printed in 2010. Lenses of Vital Insight was printed in 2013. The Assassin's Crossbow was printed in 2015. The Since TD has expanded in the past decade, it is a safe assumption (imo) that the number of Assassin's crossbows is greater than the number of vital insight, which in turn is greater than the number of mighty shortbows. Add in last year's Stunning crossbow, and the UR crossbows are going to be way more prevalent than shortbows.


Thanks for pointing that out.

I will admit my shortcoming in this area: I've been playing TD so long that the various years of token printings have all started to blur for me. Not a brag, just an acknowledgement of fact. And definitely one of the reasons we need to have input from various player groups. What I see as an easy solution ("Well, anyone who's been around for a while should have access to X and Y tokens!") is easily countered by input from newer TD fans ("Hold up. Not everyone has those. Most of us use Z!")

I stand by my assertion that a ShortBow is much easier for a "New" Rogue to come by than the elusive Lenses of Vital Insight. Rares abound... and are readily available on the secondary market... or even trading in person at GenCon. But you are absolutely right that an UR Shortbow is gonna be a challenge. Perhaps this year, a Rare or even Uncommon Shortbow and a Whetstone will be the sub-optimal solution.

Maybe - if the token stays as printed - we can lobby for a cool Shortbow in next year's URs. Or for next year/some future year to include a Sneak-Attack-with-Crossbow lenses.

One thing I have definitely learned from seeing SO MANY years of token development, is that you don't need to have *everything* in This Year's set. Find something cool that works for now, and look at other possibilities later.

And Matt, I'll try to use TDb in the future to double-check my memory on years-of-printing!
"THERE WILL NEVER BE A TOKEN EQUAL TO A GOOD BRAIN!"- Smakdown

Check out these awesome resources:
Cranston's Character Generator for iDevices or Android
Amorgen's Excel Character Generator
And the ever-useful Token DataBase , expertly maintained by Druegar.
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Ultra Rare 2020 Token Images - Final-ish 4 months 3 weeks ago #55

Wade Schwendemann wrote: I would like to see either
A. A straight reprint
2. +2 DeX or rogue may sneak attack at range (better for newbie random 10 pack openers in general, otherwise not awesome)
3. The last 5 set versions, +/- a trade in option.
4. Adding in crossbows +/- slings


+1
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Ultra Rare 2020 Token Images - Final-ish 4 months 3 weeks ago #56

I've read this thread in chunks this morning. Apologies if I repeat anything said by others regarding the lucky items, but I think this is the area of most concern.

Problem Statements:

Lucky Armor / Lucky Set

I'm leaving the lucky set discussion out of this thread for now. See the following post for thoughts on the set:
truedungeon.com/forum?view=topic&catid=615&id=250010&start=36#347281

Problem: These items obsolete a bunch of armor and shields (see below). This limits design space (all new shields will need to be better) and reduces your options for reprints (reprints are great for limiting power creep and are minimal development cost ).

Problem 1): Lucky Mail obsoletes all UR light armor with 2 possible exceptions by having the same AC bonus as printed armor, with fewer usage restrictions, with a fantastic bonus to saves.

List of obsoleted armor:
Mithral Chain (Lucky has same AC, +1 saves)
Dragon Hide (Lucky has same AC, +1 saves)

List of likely obsoleted armor
Redoubt Mail (Lucky has -1 AC, +3 Ref, +1 fort, +1 will)

List of reasonable alternatives
Troll Hide (Lucky has +1 AC, -3 Fort, +1 ref, +1 will)
For Druid only: Dragon Scale (Lucky has -2 AC -1 fire resist, but +1 all saves)

Possible Solution to 1)
Drop AC to 5, or possibly even 4. Note, this still likely does not really change the usage of Lucky mail all that much (who wouldn't trade 1AC or 2 AC for +1 all saves?)

Problem 2): Lucky Plate obsoletes all existing UR plate armor

List of obsoleted UR armor:
+1 Plate Armor (Lucky has same AC, +1 saves)
Dragonscale Armor (Lucky has -1 fire resist, +1 AC, +1 saves)
Plate armor of Absorption (Lucky has -1 melee damage resist, +1 AC, +1 saves)
Plate armor of Attack (Lucky has -1 AC, +1 saves, can be used with shield)
Redoubt Plate (Lucky has -1 AC, +3 Ref save, +1 Will save, +1 Fort save)
Templar Armor (Lucky has +1 saves)

Set bonuses discussed in a different thread, so just at a armor level, I don't think anyone wears any other UR Plate.

Possible solution to 2)
Remove lucky plate and replace with a different UR (multiple options exist). I don't see a situation where lucky plate doesn't obsolete pretty much all other UR plate armor - even at 8 AC and +1 saves, who wears a 9AC armor over lucky plate?

Problem 3): Lucky Shield obsoletes a number of UR shields.

To shorten the post, the remaining alternative shields are:

Shield of Redemption and Shield of the Scholar - both have interesting uses outside of AC and saves, so someone might choose these.

Shield of the Phalanx. Note, you would need likely 3 people wearing Shield of the Phalanx to justify not using lucky shields.


Possible solution to 3)
Drop AC to 3, or possibly even 2. Note, this still likely does not really change the usage of Lucky shield all that much (Outside of Paladin and Dwarf Fighter, who wouldn't trade 1AC or 2 AC for +1 all saves?)
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Ultra Rare 2020 Token Images - Final-ish 4 months 3 weeks ago #57

Raven wrote:

Matt Goodman wrote: My Thoughts
Alright. So Raven, you're contradicting yourself here. The mighty shortbow was printed in 2010. Lenses of Vital Insight was printed in 2013. The Assassin's Crossbow was printed in 2015. The Since TD has expanded in the past decade, it is a safe assumption (imo) that the number of Assassin's crossbows is greater than the number of vital insight, which in turn is greater than the number of mighty shortbows. Add in last year's Stunning crossbow, and the UR crossbows are going to be way more prevalent than shortbows.


Thanks for pointing that out.

I will admit my shortcoming in this area: I've been playing TD so long that the various years of token printings have all started to blur for me. Not a brag, just an acknowledgement of fact. And definitely one of the reasons we need to have input from various player groups. What I see as an easy solution ("Well, anyone who's been around for a while should have access to X and Y tokens!") is easily countered by input from newer TD fans ("Hold up. Not everyone has those. Most of us use Z!")

I stand by my assertion that a ShortBow is much easier for a "New" Rogue to come by than the elusive Lenses of Vital Insight. Rares abound... and are readily available on the secondary market... or even trading in person at GenCon. But you are absolutely right that an UR Shortbow is gonna be a challenge. Perhaps this year, a Rare or even Uncommon Shortbow and a Whetstone will be the sub-optimal solution.

Maybe - if the token stays as printed - we can lobby for a cool Shortbow in next year's URs. Or for next year/some future year to include a Sneak-Attack-with-Crossbow lenses.

One thing I have definitely learned from seeing SO MANY years of token development, is that you don't need to have *everything* in This Year's set. Find something cool that works for now, and look at other possibilities later.

And Matt, I'll try to use TDb in the future to double-check my memory on years-of-printing!

I would like to stay away from quasi promises made for next year or years to come.

How long ago was the intention to rework secondary stats (WIS, CHA, INT) announced? I completely understand delaying this to it properly implement it but I think it still contributes to this discussion.

Another example was that in 2018 there was a mention of ammunition that allowed for sneak attacking and, while not a promise, Jeff responded positively to the idea and asked to be reminded of this idea the following year. Ammunition of sneak attacking obviously didn't come to pass in 2019.

As a side note, I think a rare (1/game) or UR quiver that bestowed sneak attacking when using ammunition would be really cool.
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Last edit: by Philip Goodman.
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Ultra Rare 2020 Token Images - Final-ish 4 months 3 weeks ago #58

MasterED wrote:

Joshua Long wrote: Thanks for the response Raven!

I just looked and the +1 Mighty Shortbow was printed in 2010!

It would be nice to have that UR be reprinted to give rogues a chance to better utilize this token as written. (Or perhaps a promise that UR will be printed next year so one still has the chance to get the combo?)

Drop the Pants of the Panther and reprint the +1 Mighty Shortbow?

Ed


Ed, we are on the same wavelength, that was my exact recommendation earlier. :)

Except for the Monk GoFF of course. ;)
Last edit: by Mike Steele.
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Ultra Rare 2020 Token Images - Final-ish 4 months 3 weeks ago #59

Philip Goodman wrote:

Raven wrote:

Matt Goodman wrote: My Thoughts
Alright. So Raven, you're contradicting yourself here. The mighty shortbow was printed in 2010. Lenses of Vital Insight was printed in 2013. The Assassin's Crossbow was printed in 2015. The Since TD has expanded in the past decade, it is a safe assumption (imo) that the number of Assassin's crossbows is greater than the number of vital insight, which in turn is greater than the number of mighty shortbows. Add in last year's Stunning crossbow, and the UR crossbows are going to be way more prevalent than shortbows.


Thanks for pointing that out.

I will admit my shortcoming in this area: I've been playing TD so long that the various years of token printings have all started to blur for me. Not a brag, just an acknowledgement of fact. And definitely one of the reasons we need to have input from various player groups. What I see as an easy solution ("Well, anyone who's been around for a while should have access to X and Y tokens!") is easily countered by input from newer TD fans ("Hold up. Not everyone has those. Most of us use Z!")

I stand by my assertion that a ShortBow is much easier for a "New" Rogue to come by than the elusive Lenses of Vital Insight. Rares abound... and are readily available on the secondary market... or even trading in person at GenCon. But you are absolutely right that an UR Shortbow is gonna be a challenge. Perhaps this year, a Rare or even Uncommon Shortbow and a Whetstone will be the sub-optimal solution.

Maybe - if the token stays as printed - we can lobby for a cool Shortbow in next year's URs. Or for next year/some future year to include a Sneak-Attack-with-Crossbow lenses.

One thing I have definitely learned from seeing SO MANY years of token development, is that you don't need to have *everything* in This Year's set. Find something cool that works for now, and look at other possibilities later.

And Matt, I'll try to use TDb in the future to double-check my memory on years-of-printing!

I would like to stay away from quasi promises made for next year or years to come.

How long ago was the intention to rework secondary stats (WIS, CHA, INT) announced? I completely understand delaying this to it properly implement it but I think it still contributes to this discussion.

Another example was that in 2018 there was a mention of ammunition that allowed for sneak attacking and, while not a promise, Jeff responded positively to the idea and asked to be reminded of this idea the following year. Ammunition of sneak attacking obviously didn't come to pass in 2019.

As a side note, I think a rare (1/game) or UR quiver that bestowed sneak attacking when using ammunition would be really cool.


Good point - I'm sure there were a couple of times that the Mithral Gauntlets were pushed until "next year", and that obviously never happened. I'm starting to think they've joined Horn of Plenty and Amulet of Treasure Finding on the Reserve List. ;)
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Ultra Rare 2020 Token Images - Final-ish 4 months 3 weeks ago #60

Lordoftherealm wrote:

Rob F wrote: Not a fan of the Lenses. Just re-print Vital Insight.


+1
I would be down with Vital insight! (that was pre my time!)



I ask three times please... just reprint the lenses of vital insight. The recent iterations of the proposed token put all these limitations on players. Lets give the build diversity!
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