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TOPIC: Ultra Rare 2020 Token Images - Final-ish

Ultra Rare 2020 Token Images - Final-ish 4 months 3 weeks ago #37

Wade Schwendemann wrote: A rare short bow might be tolerable in a world where enchanter's whetstone is still available. An uncommon one only does sting a bit.
There was definitely a +1 Short Bow in at least one iteration of the rares.

Since Thor's can be wielded by those with the older token, I dont necessarily want to limit this one and keep it away from newer rogues.

If we are wanting to do exactly that, though, it is a tough needle to thread. Why should we exclude slings? I get it from a design perspective (2 handed ranged weapons is clean).

Whatever is done, I hope some adjustments are made. Or print a Short Bow at rare, UR, or both in this year's set please. Maybe a rare Mighty Shortbow?

I would also be good with a straight reprint of Lenses of Vital insight, so we dont have to do a trade in.


Replacing the Mighty Sling with a Mighty Shortbow at Rare would work. I think that's what a lot of people wanted in the first place, for synergy and because there hasn't been a Rare level Mighty Bow yet. I do see that the Mighty Sling has the advantage that all classes can use it.
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Ultra Rare 2020 Token Images - Final-ish 4 months 3 weeks ago #38

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I'm fine with the ranged sneak glasses in either form, honestly I still use leaping attack most of the time. That said since people seem surprisingly resistant t to the bow limitation (probably due to all the talk of how OP the assassins crossbow was going go be) some off the wall solutions might be

Make it an upgrade to boots of bounding rare and just drop off the self damage.

Leave the the glasses as is and switch the rare mighty sling to the mighty shortbow discussed in earlier rounds. That way people would have a good rare bow to use. Heck a rare mighty weapon is basically equivalent to an UR one if you made an enchanters whetstone this year. And it still gets around the problems caused by ranged thors (and ranged assassins crossbow, though I suspect that's a problem most dont want gotten around)

Just reprint vital insight, as people have said they are hard to find and reprints have zero risk of creep.

Or honestly, just swap it out entirely for mec or something.
Semper Gumby, Always flexible.

Sartre sits in in a coffee shop and asks for a coffee without cream. The barista apologizes “Sorry, we don't have any cream. Can I offer you a coffee without milk instead?”
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Ultra Rare 2020 Token Images - Final-ish 4 months 3 weeks ago #39

Although I would agree that a UR shortbow would fix this I would just be spending $200 to get the same thing as a lens reprint. I would be forced to get the bow as someone who picked up the crossbow last year.

If we don’t add crossbows to the restriction can we just reprint LoVI?

I agree putting mighty shortbow at rare with the whetstone would also be acceptable.
Last edit: by Flik.
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Ultra Rare 2020 Token Images - Final-ish 4 months 3 weeks ago #40

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We could also dust off an old idea from the year the lenses first saw print.

UR, +X shortbow of coolname: Rogues may sneak attack with THIS weapon.

Not powerful enough, make it Nightshade's boom done

That way new sneak attack rogues only need 1 UR, we can set the power where we like and the option to ranged sneak with anything still exists for the legendary crowd if they want to track down vital insight
Semper Gumby, Always flexible.

Sartre sits in in a coffee shop and asks for a coffee without cream. The barista apologizes “Sorry, we don't have any cream. Can I offer you a coffee without milk instead?”
Last edit: by Picc.
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Ultra Rare 2020 Token Images - Final-ish 4 months 3 weeks ago #41

Picc wrote: We could also dust off an old idea from the year the lenses first saw print.

UR, +X shortbow of coolname: Rogues may sneak attack with THIS weapon.

Not powerful enough, make it Nightshade's boom done

That way new sneak attack rogues only need 1 UR, we can set the power where we like and the option to ranged sneak with anything still exists for the legendary crowd if they want to track down vital insight


That's a nice idea, kind of like the Bard Flute Rare.
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Ultra Rare 2020 Token Images - Final-ish 4 months 3 weeks ago #42

I’d like to apologize to Rayven for stealing her cooks hat idea and claiming it as my own. I did not read much of the last thread and I would have seconded your solution. That is a better cooks hat.
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Ultra Rare 2020 Token Images - Final-ish 4 months 3 weeks ago #43

Long post, sorry. First, background (bold emphasis mine):

Raven wrote:

Flik wrote: Pretty bummed on the change to the lenses. There are only 11 bows ever printed that the rogue can even use, and the uncommon one coming out in this set and last years common bow are the only ones printed since 2014.

I cannot see anyone actually picking this up. A UR that you’ll have to use an uncommon weapon for just to sneak at range. I can’t see that replacing a UR crossbow that I just picked up last year.


Heya Flik - I was the one who suggested a drawback (only useable with Bows) to offset the complaints folks were making that this token is straight-up power creep, and doesn't force any choices.

I think that - while it's not necessarily anyone's Dream Token - it's a pretty decent way to get the Ranged Sneak ability reprinted, after so many folks were asking for a reprint or near-reprint. I do know a lot of Rogues who use a bow... particularly the +1 Mighty ShortBow, which adds their Str to damage. IF it had presented in this form at the beginning of token development (rather than getting people's hopes up for a Power Creep token) I think folks would have been much more receptive, and happy for the chance to get Ranged Sneak back into their build.

Once thing which I didn't register until Boilerplate pointed it out, was that there's no Rare bow this year. I could have sworn I'd seen a Rare Shortbow early in development... but I guess it got dropped. Even so, the +2 Dex on these Lenses mean an extra +1 to hit... which would be the same as a +1 Rare shortbow being used with the old Lenses of Vital Insight. You'd be out 1 pt of damage on the wheel... but still gain the bonus +1AC and Rfx save from the +2 Dex. Not a bad trade-off!


So, yeah - I still think this is a fine UR, with an effect people have been asking for, and forces choices. It would be better with a Rare Shortbow in the set, but those are still very easy to acquire on the secondary market.

Or, if it's really too restrictive - as many folks suggest - change it to Shortbows *AND* Crossbows.
That still forces choices for the Hammer Rogues... and honestly, that's a good place to present a choice.

Either way - I'm really glad the name changed. Thanks, Jeff!


and then, from the last revision thread:

Raven wrote: Re: Lenses of Seer Sight

I agree with the many voiced comments that this token is strictly better than Lenses of Vital Insight. With all the conversation around Power Creep, it surprises me that they were not toned down, but I thought, “okay, maybe it’s supposed to be better to drive sales.” ... and then I saw Jeff’s comment that he would allow a trade-in... so that’s clearly not it. It’s just a reprint with a little extra to make it not an exact duplicate.

What if it had a small drawback to offset the bonus Dex?

Like “Rogue May sneak attack with Bows” (Instead of “Ranged Weapon”)

That gives it flavour which Vital Insight doesn’t have, and forces a choice for those Rogues who use daggers or hammers or crossbows... AND leaves design space for making a cool Lenses token down the road which adds Ranged Sneak to a different weapon type.

...

I did consider the Assassin’s Crossbow specifically when suggesting the Seer Sight Lenses work with Bows.

1) this year has no crossbows in the set... but it does have a Short Bow in the uncommon offerings.

2) the bow is the most common kind of ranged weapon for casual players to use, available across many years

3) The Assassins Crossbow came out a while back, so anyone whose heart is set on using it for Sneak Attack has probably had a chance to hunt down Lenses of Vital Insight already.

4) If they haven’t managed to acquire Vital Insight yet, they are likely to find more copies available next year as folks who use a Bow for Ranged attacks swap out to the “better” Seer Sight Lenses, and sell the older Lenses on the secondary market.

5) It gives the Crossbow-using Rogues at least a year to think up & lobby for a better name that “Seer Sight”

My Thoughts
Alright. So Raven, you're contradicting yourself here. The mighty shortbow was printed in 2010. Lenses of Vital Insight was printed in 2013. The Assassin's Crossbow was printed in 2015. The Since TD has expanded in the past decade, it is a safe assumption (imo) that the number of Assassin's crossbows is greater than the number of vital insight, which in turn is greater than the number of mighty shortbows. Add in last year's Stunning crossbow, and the UR crossbows are going to be way more prevalent than shortbows.

Honestly, it sounds very much like a slap in the face for rogues. You want to sneak attack at ranged? Ok, buy this UR token, then go track down old bows, the last rare was in 2014. Even if a rare shortbow was added to this set, telling a player to find a rare, make the whetstone, then it's "almost, but not really" good, but nowhere near the same power level as the "vets' tokens" leaves a very poor taste in my mouth.

Solutions:
1) Reprint Lenses of Vital Insight
2) Have +2 Dex (unless rogue). Rogue may sneak attack at range.
3) Change restriction to crossbows
4) remove restictions
5) restrict to non-thrown weapons (could even include mighty in this category)
Last edit: by Matt Goodman.
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Ultra Rare 2020 Token Images - Final-ish 4 months 3 weeks ago #44

I think the UR tokens look great. I really like where the two sets for new players ended up.
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Ultra Rare 2020 Token Images - Final-ish 4 months 3 weeks ago #45

Seem to be two key points in this revision.

Lenses of the Archer - +2 to Dexterity Rogue: May Sneak Attack w/Short Bows

If you are going to offer a Ranged Sneak with a Dexterity bump (which is significantly better than Lenses of Vital Insight) then there has to be a restriction. This seems reasonable but alienates the Stunning Crossbow/+2 Assassin's Crossbow crowd. Also to note the Ranged Assassin Crossbow is the highest DPS the Rogue can do leveraging their legendary from last year. I would not suggest adding Crossbow to this. Either (as previously mentioned) print a Rare Shortbow (with the Enchanter's Whetsone) they get a nice combination or just reprint the Lenses of Vital Insight.

Lucky Set of Armor.

Lucky Light Mail (+6 to AC, +1 to Saves)
Lucky Plate Mail (+9 to AC, +1 to Saves)
Lucky Shield (+4 to AC, +1 to Saves)

Lucky Set Bonus - +5 to Max HP

Comparing to Redoubt Set [and Relic Blessed version after]
Redoubt Mail (+7 AC, -2 Reflex) - [+8 AC]
Redoubt Plate (+10 AC, -2 Reflex) - [+11 AC]
Redoubt Shield (+5 AC, -2 Fort) - [+5]

Redoubt Set Bonus - When at least three items are worn, the character gains +2 to Strength (thus adding +1 To Hit in melee and +1 Damage with melee and thrown weapons) and +5 to max HP.

In reference the Defender Rare items are:
Defender Plate (+8 AC)
Defender Shield (+3 AC)

So lets build a set (Torso, Shield, Head) for each level for Plate wearing and Mail wearing

Rare Mail - (Soul Stained Armor +5, Loki's Trickster +2, -2 Saves, Large Bliss Shield +2 AC) - +9 AC, -2 Saves
Rare Plate - Defender set 13 AC, +1 saves, Freedom of Movement

Lucky Mail (Hat of the Hellway +2 AC) +12 AC, +2 Saves, +5 Max Hps
Lucky Plate (with same Hat) +15 AC, +2 Saves, +5 Max Hps

Redoubt Mail +16 AC, -2 Saves, +2 STR, +5 Max Hps
Redoubt Plate +19 AC, -2 Saves, +2 STR, +5 Max Hps

Relic Redoubt Mail +17 AC, +2 STR, +5 Max Hps
Relic Redoubt Plate +20 AC, +2 STR, +5 Max Hps

Based upon the numbers above I think it is in the middle ground. Lucky should be better then Rare and it is not better than Redoubt even though they are both UR items.

If you still feel your Redoubt items are surpassed by the Lucky ones I would be happy to trade you for them.

Ed
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Last edit: by MasterED.
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Ultra Rare 2020 Token Images - Final-ish 4 months 3 weeks ago #46

Mike Steele wrote:

Wade Schwendemann wrote: A rare short bow might be tolerable in a world where enchanter's whetstone is still available. An uncommon one only does sting a bit.
There was definitely a +1 Short Bow in at least one iteration of the rares.

Since Thor's can be wielded by those with the older token, I dont necessarily want to limit this one and keep it away from newer rogues.

If we are wanting to do exactly that, though, it is a tough needle to thread. Why should we exclude slings? I get it from a design perspective (2 handed ranged weapons is clean).

Whatever is done, I hope some adjustments are made. Or print a Short Bow at rare, UR, or both in this year's set please. Maybe a rare Mighty Shortbow?

I would also be good with a straight reprint of Lenses of Vital insight, so we dont have to do a trade in.


Replacing the Mighty Sling with a Mighty Shortbow at Rare would work. I think that's what a lot of people wanted in the first place, for synergy and because there hasn't been a Rare level Mighty Bow yet. I do see that the Mighty Sling has the advantage that all classes can use it.


Please don't bump the Mighty Sling out of the set unless you're replacing it with another Rare ranged weapon the Cleric can use. They didn't get a Rare ranged weapon in the 2019 tokens, please don't skip two years in a row.

If it must be a bow, there has been some precedence set by the +1 Sahuagin Blunt Lt. Crossbow, we could do the same with a bow maybe?
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Ultra Rare 2020 Token Images - Final-ish 4 months 3 weeks ago #47

Flik wrote: Although I would agree that a UR shortbow would fix this I would just be spending $200 to get the same thing as a lens reprint. I would be forced to get the bow as someone who picked up the crossbow last year.

If we don’t add crossbows to the restriction can we just reprint LoVI?

I agree putting mighty shortbow at rare with the whetstone would also be acceptable.


The idea of having to buy 2 tokens to make this work does not make sense for any player level whether its another UR and or Rare weapon to use it. Do new players buy PYPs or $250 orders, most likely not? I can see if they get this randomly in a ten pack but it seems to have muddied the intent in current form when it was a win for all player levels. There is a lot to take in to learn TD so making it more complicated in my view is not a good idea. Vet players are not going to step down to a Rare as more likely than not they would be better off backstabbing with their Melee weapon.

I also agree with Fiddy that the Clerics deserve the Sling this year. No pretzel twisting for this.

At this point Lenses of the Fae blow this away. I'm not against a Vital insight reprint but I think I would still pass and keep Fae. I liked the idea of making Vital Insight a transmute to get the Dex bonus that someone proposed earlier.
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Last edit: by JACKOFTRADZE.
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Ultra Rare 2020 Token Images - Final-ish 4 months 3 weeks ago #48

Jeff, if the Lenses stay like this, are you still offering a trade-in for Lenses of Vital Insight? I'd recommend not, because it's no longer a case of strictly better, they are each better in different circumstances. Which is good token design, I think.
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