TOPIC: 2020 Token Notes (July 16 Update)

Flik wrote: I still think that the arcane set bonus needs to be improved. Currently, it gives no incentive to pick up the entire set. Isn’t that the point of a set bonus?

+1

It has been discussed ad nauseam in earlier iterations, but I will join the chorus of those who think this feels weak if the goal is to get people to buy all three tokens. I can see people picking up one or two but not feeling incentive to get the second or third. Also, the bonus feels more Devine than Arcane since it only applies to healing consumables. And it feels somewhat redundant with other items that have similar effects (Key, Alchemist Pouch, etc.). And, at merely plus 1, it seems weaker than those others.

Would be better if the buff applied to all consumables (healing and damage wands, potions, scrolls - maybe even dust and ammo) and was higher. Maybe +2. Otherwise this three set bonus compares very poorly to other set bonuses in the game and other single token effects.

The other option is to drop the set bonus altogether instead of offering a weak set bonus. Given that I don’t think the bonus as printed is going to change collecting behavior, unless the bonus is improved I would almost prefer no bonus to a weak bonus that sets bad precedent for future sets.

(Oh, and of course thanks again to the TD team for continued thoughtful work on this stuff.)

Fred K wrote:

Endgame wrote:

Milambus (Jake) wrote:

Druegar wrote: Slot Expanders Cap
We've put a hard cap on the number of Charms (10) and Ioun Stones (9) one can equip. We feel it's important to rein-in future slot-expansion. At this time, only the Charm and Ioun Stone slots are being capped, but it's possible that at some point in the future we may need to cap other slots.

Good call. But can we make it 10 and 10, so its easier to remember?

How about 8 and 8 so we can start with the meaningful decisions on slot expanders now?

+1

+2

Endgame wrote:

Milambus (Jake) wrote:

Druegar wrote: Slot Expanders Cap
We've put a hard cap on the number of Charms (10) and Ioun Stones (9) one can equip. We feel it's important to rein-in future slot-expansion. At this time, only the Charm and Ioun Stone slots are being capped, but it's possible that at some point in the future we may need to cap other slots.

Good call. But can we make it 10 and 10, so its easier to remember?

How about 8 and 8 so we can start with the meaningful decisions on slot expanders now?

It should probably be 9 and 9 or 10 and 10.
The 9 and 9 would be more inline with the Ioun Stones of 5 base + 2 from earcuff of orbits + 2 from new braces = 9.

Joshua Long wrote:

Endgame wrote:

Milambus (Jake) wrote:

Druegar wrote: Slot Expanders Cap
We've put a hard cap on the number of Charms (10) and Ioun Stones (9) one can equip. We feel it's important to rein-in future slot-expansion. At this time, only the Charm and Ioun Stone slots are being capped, but it's possible that at some point in the future we may need to cap other slots.

Good call. But can we make it 10 and 10, so its easier to remember?

How about 8 and 8 so we can start with the meaningful decisions on slot expanders now?

It should probably be 9 and 9 or 10 and 10.
The 9 and 9 would be more inline with the Ioun Stones of 5 base + 2 from earcuff of orbits + 2 from new braces = 9.

I actually prefer the idea that if you fit both Ioun Stone slot expanders (wrist and earcuff) that you end up only gaining 3 IS slots. If you REALLY want that 8th IS slot, you'll have to trade your ear / wrist for it, not trade the wrist / ear and gain a bonus slot.

Endgame wrote:

Joshua Long wrote:

Endgame wrote:

Milambus (Jake) wrote:

Druegar wrote: Slot Expanders Cap
We've put a hard cap on the number of Charms (10) and Ioun Stones (9) one can equip. We feel it's important to rein-in future slot-expansion. At this time, only the Charm and Ioun Stone slots are being capped, but it's possible that at some point in the future we may need to cap other slots.

Good call. But can we make it 10 and 10, so its easier to remember?

How about 8 and 8 so we can start with the meaningful decisions on slot expanders now?

It should probably be 9 and 9 or 10 and 10.
The 9 and 9 would be more inline with the Ioun Stones of 5 base + 2 from earcuff of orbits + 2 from new braces = 9.

I actually prefer the idea that if you fit both Ioun Stone slot expanders (wrist and earcuff) that you end up only gaining 3 IS slots. If you REALLY want that 8th IS slot, you'll have to trade your ear / wrist for it, not trade the wrist / ear and gain a bonus slot.

I personally don't. That restriction would go against the wording of the tokens and cause confusion.

Joshua Long wrote:

Endgame wrote:

Joshua Long wrote:

Endgame wrote:

Milambus (Jake) wrote:

Druegar wrote: Slot Expanders Cap
We've put a hard cap on the number of Charms (10) and Ioun Stones (9) one can equip. We feel it's important to rein-in future slot-expansion. At this time, only the Charm and Ioun Stone slots are being capped, but it's possible that at some point in the future we may need to cap other slots.

Good call. But can we make it 10 and 10, so its easier to remember?

How about 8 and 8 so we can start with the meaningful decisions on slot expanders now?

It should probably be 9 and 9 or 10 and 10.
The 9 and 9 would be more inline with the Ioun Stones of 5 base + 2 from earcuff of orbits + 2 from new braces = 9.

I actually prefer the idea that if you fit both Ioun Stone slot expanders (wrist and earcuff) that you end up only gaining 3 IS slots. If you REALLY want that 8th IS slot, you'll have to trade your ear / wrist for it, not trade the wrist / ear and gain a bonus slot.

I personally don't. That restriction would go against the wording of the tokens and cause confusion.

The wording includes "with a max of X slots". I'm not sure how a defined max on the token causes confusion.

Endgame wrote:

Joshua Long wrote:

Endgame wrote:

Milambus (Jake) wrote:

Druegar wrote: Slot Expanders Cap
We've put a hard cap on the number of Charms (10) and Ioun Stones (9) one can equip. We feel it's important to rein-in future slot-expansion. At this time, only the Charm and Ioun Stone slots are being capped, but it's possible that at some point in the future we may need to cap other slots.

Good call. But can we make it 10 and 10, so its easier to remember?

How about 8 and 8 so we can start with the meaningful decisions on slot expanders now?

It should probably be 9 and 9 or 10 and 10.
The 9 and 9 would be more inline with the Ioun Stones of 5 base + 2 from earcuff of orbits + 2 from new braces = 9.

I actually prefer the idea that if you fit both Ioun Stone slot expanders (wrist and earcuff) that you end up only gaining 3 IS slots. If you REALLY want that 8th IS slot, you'll have to trade your ear / wrist for it, not trade the wrist / ear and gain a bonus slot.

I think if you make it 8 & 8, then anyone who owns Orbits doesn't buy the Arcane Bracelets. TD is just leaving money on the table in this scenario.

At 9 & 9, even if someone's using Charm Necklace, he/she may still get the Arcane Earcuff just because they'd like something else for their wrist slot.

The value of the Wrist slot is much higher than ever. Bracers of Reckless Fury, Bracers of Supreme Archery, Charm Bracelets, Bracers of Fast Fitness are all solid options in the slot.

Arnold wrote:

Endgame wrote:

Joshua Long wrote:

Endgame wrote:

Milambus (Jake) wrote:

Druegar wrote: Slot Expanders Cap
We've put a hard cap on the number of Charms (10) and Ioun Stones (9) one can equip. We feel it's important to rein-in future slot-expansion. At this time, only the Charm and Ioun Stone slots are being capped, but it's possible that at some point in the future we may need to cap other slots.

Good call. But can we make it 10 and 10, so its easier to remember?

How about 8 and 8 so we can start with the meaningful decisions on slot expanders now?

It should probably be 9 and 9 or 10 and 10.
The 9 and 9 would be more inline with the Ioun Stones of 5 base + 2 from earcuff of orbits + 2 from new braces = 9.

I actually prefer the idea that if you fit both Ioun Stone slot expanders (wrist and earcuff) that you end up only gaining 3 IS slots. If you REALLY want that 8th IS slot, you'll have to trade your ear / wrist for it, not trade the wrist / ear and gain a bonus slot.

I think if you make it 8 & 8, then anyone who owns Orbits doesn't buy the Arcane Bracelets. TD is just leaving money on the table in this scenario.

At 9 & 9, even if someone's using Charm Necklace, he/she may still get the Arcane Earcuff just because they'd like something else for their wrist slot.

The value of the Wrist slot is much higher than ever. Bracers of Reckless Fury, Bracers of Supreme Archery, Charm Bracelets, Bracers of Fast Fitness are all solid options in the slot.

Its OK if someone with Orbits doesn't buy the wrist IS expander due to a total a limit of 8. If a 3 IS slot Neck expander hits next year it would also run up against the limit with orbits and td would be "leaving money on the table". Once you start forcing choices for slots, whether it be via a slot expander limit or just having a competitive slot, at some point people will bump into the limit and not buy a new token for the slot. Or they will buy the new token /expander and drop an old one. All of these situations are OK.

PalaDan wrote: I gotta say, I like Grace. I'd bump the bonus a tad higher to make it a truly legendary ability, but it's pretty decent at +3.

The thing I would like to see is it bonus up any type of save not just reflex. Grace would have much more utility if it were any type of save.

Wayne Rhodes wrote:

PalaDan wrote: I gotta say, I like Grace. I'd bump the bonus a tad higher to make it a truly legendary ability, but it's pretty decent at +3.

The thing I would like to see is it bonus up any type of save not just reflex. Grace would have much more utility if it were any type of save.

I think it does apply to any saving throw, it's just the example in the notes uses a Reflex save.

Endgame wrote:

Arnold wrote:

Endgame wrote:

Joshua Long wrote:

Endgame wrote:

Milambus (Jake) wrote:

Druegar wrote: Slot Expanders Cap
We've put a hard cap on the number of Charms (10) and Ioun Stones (9) one can equip. We feel it's important to rein-in future slot-expansion. At this time, only the Charm and Ioun Stone slots are being capped, but it's possible that at some point in the future we may need to cap other slots.

Good call. But can we make it 10 and 10, so its easier to remember?

How about 8 and 8 so we can start with the meaningful decisions on slot expanders now?

It should probably be 9 and 9 or 10 and 10.
The 9 and 9 would be more inline with the Ioun Stones of 5 base + 2 from earcuff of orbits + 2 from new braces = 9.

I actually prefer the idea that if you fit both Ioun Stone slot expanders (wrist and earcuff) that you end up only gaining 3 IS slots. If you REALLY want that 8th IS slot, you'll have to trade your ear / wrist for it, not trade the wrist / ear and gain a bonus slot.

I think if you make it 8 & 8, then anyone who owns Orbits doesn't buy the Arcane Bracelets. TD is just leaving money on the table in this scenario.

At 9 & 9, even if someone's using Charm Necklace, he/she may still get the Arcane Earcuff just because they'd like something else for their wrist slot.

The value of the Wrist slot is much higher than ever. Bracers of Reckless Fury, Bracers of Supreme Archery, Charm Bracelets, Bracers of Fast Fitness are all solid options in the slot.

Its OK if someone with Orbits doesn't buy the wrist IS expander due to a total a limit of 8. If a 3 IS slot Neck expander hits next year it would also run up against the limit with orbits and td would be "leaving money on the table". Once you start forcing choices for slots, whether it be via a slot expander limit or just having a competitive slot, at some point people will bump into the limit and not buy a new token for the slot. Or they will buy the new token /expander and drop an old one. All of these situations are OK.

Seems to me since overall charms are more powerful than Ioun Stones that the upper limit on charms should be lower than Ioun Stones.
I think the limit are being set based purely on what is already in print and what is in the set combined.
I think the upper limit should be set at least at 10 but more likely 11 if the charm limit is 10. I think the Ioun Stones being on avenger weaker should have extra spots available eventually.

Flik wrote: I still think that the arcane set bonus needs to be improved. Currently, it gives no incentive to pick up the entire set. Isn’t that the point of a set bonus?

+1