TOPIC: Almost Final Transmuted Token Images! Please give these your look-see!

Wade Schwendemann wrote:

Rob F wrote: For all those not happy with the change to the Pally sword, don't forget the other benefit you get by using it vs. the other melee classes: +3 Strength, +4 Constitution (Valhalla). So it's fine, if not still a bit OP.

Except that, as currently written, we lose guarding a 2nd player save for one room. Too high a price for a defender class.

+1

Guard would be the only constant ability on the HA (in my opinion similar to the constant +bonuses to damage on the neck slot legendaries).

Also (and maybe I’m just looking at this the wrong way), isn‘t saying “pallies are getting a free neck slot” the same as “the melee classes are getting a free weapon slot”?

Paladin legendary OP

I am confused about the intended power level of the paladin legendary sword. The power level seems to be unrecognizable as a weapon so I will first compare them as if the paladin sword was actually an amulet that combos with the UR sword... that also lets you wear another amulet.


So reading this as if it was a neck slot:


Legendary Paladin Neck:

> +3 to hit and +3 to damage with the +2 holy avenger

> +2 holy avenger instantly kills Evil Outsider on "20"

> 2 uses of Grace: Each party member gains 2 additional Figurine of Power slots that are equipped with Figurine of Power: Scarab

> +1 Guard 1/game

> +15 to Lay on Hands (basically Crown of Expertise )

> Wear 1 additional neck ( Amulet of Guarding , Medallion of Valhalla , Charm Necklace , etc)


Is this meant to be as powerful as two legendary tokens combined? Because that is what it appears to be.

Another way to look at it would be to split apart this legendary into two separate legendary tokens:


+5 Legendary Sword:

>Keep damage wheel at 6-8-9-9-10-11-13-14

>"20" kills Evil Outsider


Which is a comparable legendary sword to Welfor's.


Legendary Amulet

> 2 uses of Grace: Each party member gains 2 additional Figurine of Power slots that are equipped with Figurine of Power: Scarab

> +1 Guard 1/game

> +15 to Lay on Hands (basically Crown of Expertise )

> Wear 1 additional neck ( Amulet of Guarding , Medallion of Valhalla , Charm Necklace , etc)


Which would be a distinctly powerful legendary amulet.


I have seen arguments around "it has to be significantly better than Welfor's otherwise why bother." but the additional effects on this +5 weapon are incredible. To bypass Welfor's it would only need one of the listed effects (Grace, 2x Lay on Hands, +1 guard) but instead it has 3!


And the other arguments of how Drue's and Drake's were also two legendary tokens in one... please. Neither one of those tokens allows the use of the actual weapon and the bonus to spells at the same time . Only the druid legendary is partially synergistic with the bonus to hit conferring over to polymorph attacks. We are designing a legendary paladin weapon that is fully capable of utilizing all of it's powers at once.


I could almost get behind the current power level of the paladin legendary if it was stated that paladins were never going to be able to obtain a relic or legendary amulet in the future of TD (which is a hard thing to promise)... except that it is still the price tag of one legendary for the effects of two! A paladin making this legendary as their first legendary token is getting a legendary weapon and all of the effects we would expect to see on a legendary amulet all in one token. And I seriously doubt this legendary will cost the materials of two to make.


So are we really okay with designing this legendary sword as if it is two legendary tokens combined?

payden wrote: Paladin legendary OP

I am confused about the intended power level of the paladin legendary sword. The power level seems to be unrecognizable as a weapon so I will first compare them as if the paladin sword was actually an amulet that combos with the UR sword... that also lets you wear another amulet.


So reading this as if it was a neck slot:


Legendary Paladin Neck:

> +3 to hit and +3 to damage with the +2 holy avenger

> +2 holy avenger instantly kills Evil Outsider on "20"

> 2 uses of Grace: Each party member gains 2 additional Figurine of Power slots that are equipped with Figurine of Power: Scarab

> +1 Guard 1/game

> +15 to Lay on Hands (basically Crown of Expertise )

> Wear 1 additional neck ( Amulet of Guarding , Medallion of Valhalla , Charm Necklace , etc)


Is this meant to be as powerful as two legendary tokens combined? Because that is what it appears to be.

Another way to look at it would be to split apart this legendary into two separate legendary tokens:


+5 Legendary Sword:

>Keep damage wheel at 6-8-9-9-10-11-13-14

>"20" kills Evil Outsider


Which is a comparable legendary sword to Welfor's.


Legendary Amulet

> 2 uses of Grace: Each party member gains 2 additional Figurine of Power slots that are equipped with Figurine of Power: Scarab

> +1 Guard 1/game

> +15 to Lay on Hands (basically Crown of Expertise )

> Wear 1 additional neck ( Amulet of Guarding , Medallion of Valhalla , Charm Necklace , etc)


Which would be a distinctly powerful legendary amulet.


I have seen arguments around "it has to be significantly better than Welfor's otherwise why bother." but the additional effects on this +5 weapon are incredible. To bypass Welfor's it would only need one of the listed effects (Grace, 2x Lay on Hands, +1 guard) but instead it has 3!


And the other arguments of how Drue's and Drake's were also two legendary tokens in one... please. Neither one of those tokens allows the use of the actual weapon and the bonus to spells at the same time . Only the druid legendary is partially synergistic with the bonus to hit conferring over to polymorph attacks. We are designing a legendary paladin weapon that is fully capable of utilizing all of it's powers at once.


I could almost get behind the current power level of the paladin legendary if it was stated that paladins were never going to be able to obtain a relic or legendary amulet in the future of TD (which is a hard thing to promise)... except that it is still the price tag of one legendary for the effects of two! A paladin making this legendary as their first legendary token is getting a legendary weapon and all of the effects we would expect to see on a legendary amulet all in one token. And I seriously doubt this legendary will cost the materials of two to make.


So are we really okay with designing this legendary sword as if it is two legendary tokens combined?

Well said.

payden wrote: Paladin legendary OP

I am confused about the intended power level of the paladin legendary sword. The power level seems to be unrecognizable as a weapon so I will first compare them as if the paladin sword was actually an amulet that combos with the UR sword... that also lets you wear another amulet.


So reading this as if it was a neck slot:


Legendary Paladin Neck:

> +3 to hit and +3 to damage with the +2 holy avenger

> +2 holy avenger instantly kills Evil Outsider on "20"

> 2 uses of Grace: Each party member gains 2 additional Figurine of Power slots that are equipped with Figurine of Power: Scarab

Unless I am mistaken, grace is literally just two uses of figurine of power:scarab. Your statement that it is equipping each player with the figurine x 2 would be incorrect I believe. It's just two regular uses. It seems very weak to me.

So it's essentially:

a sword with a worse damage wheel than Welfor's

2 red figurines

an UR (crown of expertise, sure I like that)

another UR (amulet of guarding or something in the neck)

1 extra guard per game (so, like, 1/3rd of a UR?)

Killing evil outsiders on 20s - everyone seems to be 'meh' on this one.

So 2 red figurines, 2 and 1/3rd URs.

I am still of the opinion that in it's current form, it's underwhelming for the Paladin's Legendary.

This is a completely inaccurate comparison. Every other class can also equip Welfor's, Averon's, Thor's, Asher's

If we start counting the weapon part as a "benefit," we are completely missing the point.

IF the guard was the whole time, the legendary would have (over Welfor's):

Your choice of +2Str/Dex/Con, +3 Str/+3 Dex, +3 Str/+4 Con, may guard an additional player, or may wear 3 more charms

+15 LoH

Give +3 to saves 2/game

20 kills evil outsider

That would only be true IF guard were working the entire time.

Keep in mind that equipping this also means the Paladin cant use the new 2H only bracers, like their Averon's wielding counterparts.

Honestly, it isnt weak, and as it is a legendary it shouldn't be.

Please don't try to convince me its OP when compared to the Barbarian or Monk legendary necklaces.

This is a team game, and we should let people support their team. Give the +5 (at least) guard for the whole game.

jpotter wrote:

payden wrote: Paladin legendary OP

I am confused about the intended power level of the paladin legendary sword. The power level seems to be unrecognizable as a weapon so I will first compare them as if the paladin sword was actually an amulet that combos with the UR sword... that also lets you wear another amulet.


So reading this as if it was a neck slot:


Legendary Paladin Neck:

> +3 to hit and +3 to damage with the +2 holy avenger

> +2 holy avenger instantly kills Evil Outsider on "20"

> 2 uses of Grace: Each party member gains 2 additional Figurine of Power slots that are equipped with Figurine of Power: Scarab

Unless I am mistaken, grace is literally just two uses of figurine of power:scarab. Your statement that it is equipping each player with the figurine x 2 would be incorrect I believe. It's just two regular uses. It seems very weak in fact.

So it's essentially:

a sword with a worse damage wheel than Welfor's

2 red figurines

an UR (crown of expertise, sure I like that)

another UR (amulet of guarding or something in the neck)

1 extra guard per game (so, like, 1/3rd of a UR?)

Killing evil outsiders on 20s - everyone seems to be 'meh' on this one.

So 2 red figurines, 2 and 1/3rd URs.

I am still of the opinion that in it's current form, it's underwhelming for the Paladin's Legendary.

FOP: Scarab is only +3 saves to your (person who has it equipped) saves. At least this is how every DM ruled it for me. So yes, the original statement stands. it's basically 20x FOP: Scarabs. If FOP: Scarab works that it's +3 to the group dice roll, then whoa, I need to make sure whoever has that equipped is the only one rolling the party saves.

Rob F wrote:

Wayne Rhodes wrote:

PalaDan wrote:

Wade Schwendemann wrote: Grace is a great effect, though is +3 the right number?

Are you thinking higher or lower?

Wade Schwendemann wrote: I would like to see guard be the entire run rather than just one room.

Same.

Basically if guard is full dungeon and everything else on this token is left as is currently, I think the Holy avengers is worth making. If you don’t already have a +5 weapon it still might be worth making as is. For me already having a good +5 weapon, the key to my interest is full time guard. Or at least bake in some sacred damage to give it some extra punch.

Right now dial wise it’s a sub pare weapon for a legendary. Viper strike is better, Death cleaver is better and Welfor’s is better. While the damage wheel on Thor’s is worse, it does get help from being ranged and extended crit range but probably not a fair comparison. Only the two Focus weapon are true melee and are worse and the Druid/Cleric weapon is very close to the same damage.
The other abilities are good but without guard or a better dial it’s just not enough for the class legendary. Guard was always the one ability that could not be traded off when discussing the Holy avenger. And some of the early versions with guard were not good enough.

Which is a better token the current Holy avenger posted or Drue’s +5 Baton of Focus.

I would personally say Drue’s +5 Baton of Focus is fare and away better and it doesn’t count as either of those classes legendary.

Right now the +5 Holy Avenger is interesting but not great IMO

Welfor's is better?? If your a paladin and you had to chose between the current version of the Avenger and Welfor's you'd pick Welfor's? I don't see why anyone would.

I was discussing the weapon part Welfor's in that part of the post.

Then I compared the Holy avenger to Drue’s +5 Baton of Focus. this is more a 1 to 1 companion

Drue’s +5 Baton of Focus has a damage wheel almost as good as the Holy Avenger
The +5 focus ability is the same as the legendary ring
The Holy avenger doesn’t have anything on it currently that would be at UR level. If it had the second guard then that is a UR level ability and a bunch of interesting from time to time abilities, many of which I would only use if they didn’t cost me slots if they were there own tokens.
So of the class oriented weapons this would be the worst.

I re-did my max damage model* at legendary with the current iteration, classes from first to worst with their damage last year.

Monk: 775 (+128)
Barbarian: 711 (+258) (Assumes 2 Greater Rages and 60% hit chance on Fury)
Melee Ranger: 647 (+43)
Wizard: 571 (+40)
Elf Wizard: 568 (+40)
Spell Druid: 545 (+40)
Dwarf Fighter: 498 (+41)
Ranged Ranger: 468 (no prior value)
Fighter: 467 (+38)
Paladin 450 (+38)
Melee Druid: 438 (+14)
Rogue: 400 (+28)
Bard: 342 (+21)
Spell Cleric: 338 (+26)
Melee Cleric: 319 (-4) # This probably means my 2019 cleric was wrong.

Each point on the Monk Legendary accounts for about 14 points in the model.

I'm happy to see Barbarians up with Monk and Ranger - given the history of printing available to all STR and Melee damage boosters melee rangers will catch up and surpass Barbarians in a few years if the trend continues.

I'm concerned to see Monks outclassing everyone else while also getting the ability to hit melee creatures at range.

Lots of creep overall at the top end (+3 shirt, +2 charm earcuff, Arcane belt and Banshee Prism for casters, +6 bracers for zwei-handers, etc.).

* Assumes 10 rounds of combat, build optimized to max damage, ~60% slide hit rates, 5% crit rates except Rogue with 15% due to Sneaky Necklace, 100% spell effectiveness for non-slide spells, doesn't take into account Rogue crit multipliers from Sneak Attack damage using special tokens.


Table:

docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1PfC7x2PcmM7HeDjKHR6OF50GsTOeNijC9otVqYC7hzY/edit#gid=114143415


Builds: docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1PfC7x2PcmM7HeDjKHR6OF50GsTOeNijC9otVqYC7hzY/edit#gid=2075300529

Hahaha cleric bringing the rear. Obviously someone has to be there but hah.

Flik wrote: Hahaha cleric bringing the rear. Obviously someone has to be there but hah.

Damage is not their job.

Endgame wrote:

Fiddy wrote:

Endgame wrote: Question on the Charm of Glory:

Is there any class or build that does not always swap one charm for a ring with the extra charm slots granted by the earcuff?

I by no means have thought through all the combinations, but I do think it will be a question of what you're building for.

Let's look at a high-end spellcaster for example. We'll assume you're starting with CoAS as well and the CoA. Toss on Charm of Brooching so you can wear Shadowskin and Pharcus for protection. So there's your base 3 charm slots taken up.

Those of us that like the Cabal set bonus have another charm tied up from that.

And then for the fifth, getting more spells from a Charm of Spell Swapping can give you more flexible damage than say wearing the Relic Focus Ring, Legendary Focus, and having RoSEC for the Eldritch bump (instead of just two of those).

So, I don't think it is an automatic swap out.

I'm thinking 7 charm slots will be the new norm on most builds. Ice craig gets dumped for charm of brooching and a ring where the ring at minimum could be the new ring of stamina to preserve the hps.

Yeah regardless which Charms you choose to equip, Icecrag Hero's Earcuff is the biggest loser in this whole thing. I wouldn't take it over 2 Charm slots. RIP Icecrag.

In most of my builds I think I would swap a Charm for a Ring, yeah. That's a good trade.

What is the source of Lenses of the Owl? Hunter's Lenses? Or something else?

Either way, I hope they are a cheap, cheap transmute. Because we have a common +1 to hit with bows, a UC +1 to hit with missiles, and these with +1 to hit in range. It seems like a very small and fine jump between them.