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MasterED wrote:

Mike Steele wrote: I think the problem isn't that the Ranger is underpowered at range, it's that the Monk is massively overpowered at range. If that isn't fixed, we'll have situations like this where other classes need huge ranged power boosts to keep up.

I recommend nerfing both Gloves of the Flying Fist and the relic and legendary this year. Maybe limit them to once per game like Fizzy Pack. Or use the ranged to hit or damage instead of both being melee.

This is the perfect opportunity to swap out the Monk UR ring with a nerfed GoTFF, and modify the relic and legendary accordingly. To me, this is more unbalancing than either the LoDS or CoS which were nerfed last year.

There is the Mike I know and love!

So ever since 2017 when TPTB put +5 CHA on the Aron's Sunhide Robe (Legendary) they said the additional CHA was for Monks and there would be something cool coming for it. Maybe there needs to be a CHA requirement. Monk's base is only a 11 CHA and there are only two real items in the game that give a stat bump to CHA (that Robe and the Crown of Charisma). If there was a CHA 15 requirement it would mean they would have to use their Head slot (like we have in Mad Evoker's Charm before) to equip them.

Just offering a solution besides nerfing more 2014 tokens.

Ed

Mike Steele wrote:

MasterED wrote:

Mike Steele wrote: I think the problem isn't that the Ranger is underpowered at range, it's that the Monk is massively overpowered at range. If that isn't fixed, we'll have situations like this where other classes need huge ranged power boosts to keep up.

I recommend nerfing both Gloves of the Flying Fist and the relic and legendary this year. Maybe limit them to once per game like Fizzy Pack. Or use the ranged to hit or damage instead of both being melee.

This is the perfect opportunity to swap out the Monk UR ring with a nerfed GoTFF, and modify the relic and legendary accordingly. To me, this is more unbalancing than either the LoDS or CoS which were nerfed last year.

There is the Mike I know and love!

So ever since 2017 when TPTB put +5 CHA on the Aron's Sunhide Robe (Legendary) they said the additional CHA was for Monks and there would be something cool coming for it. Maybe there needs to be a CHA requirement. Monk's base is only a 11 CHA and there are only two real items in the game that give a stat bump to CHA (that Robe and the Crown of Charisma). If there was a CHA 15 requirement it would mean they would have to use their Head slot (like we have in Mad Evoker's Charm before) to equip them.

Just offering a solution besides nerfing more 2014 tokens.

Ed

Ed, I'll have to agree to disagree with you on this. Something like that is just a minor obstacle, it won't solve the unbalanced situation of Monk dominating both Melee and Ranged. It didn't stop the MEC from being widely used.

Mike Steele wrote: I have to agree to disagree with you on this. Something like that is just a minor obstacle, it won't solve the unbalanced situation of Monk dominating both Melee and Ranged. It didn't stop the MEC from being widely used.

Ian Lee wrote:

Steven wrote: Just a thought but not much talk going on about the ranger legendary. To me it seems like a few things are happening and that’s that since most play melee rangers this isn’t strong enough to make anyone switch so no one is going to make it and since the majority see that it’s a ranged item have written it off and haven’t thrown out any criticism so no tweaks have been made to it. Then again maybe he hit the nail on the head Already I don’t know

I don't feel strongly about it, but, since you brought it up, I took a look at the relic and legendary again. If you strip away the consumable abilities, as I don't expect to use them even if I had one of these tokens, you get +3 CON/+4 dmg and +4 CON/+6 dmg. So, I use Charm Necklace for non-silly Ranger builds, but let's say someone was running Valhalla. That means -3 STR/-1 CON and +4 dmg and -3 STR and +6 dmg. Since STR is irrelevant to a pure ranged build using something like Io's or *gasp* a non legendary bow like +2 Keen Slayer, still seems kind of mundane.

Animal Friend - I think this is a waste of an amusing idea. Charm of Shadow Shot already exists, and I'm sure druids and wizards and bards all want to be friendly with animals, too. Plus, as folks have said, introducing a brand new ability that is the third ability on the token that uses consumables.

Scroll use - Thematic and somewhat amusing. It's just that using scrolls isn't all that desirable. This feels like the "fun" ability to tack on at the end.

Ammo - This is on point [sic] for rangers. Ranger should be the god of ammo use. The problem is that lot of players don't like using up tokens. Still, if you ended up with some common and uncommon arrows some year, elevate them from EM fodder to "Sure, why the hell not lose this low value token forever?"

I guess this is a lot of the benefit of the Holy Avenger not being a neck slot item - you don't have to constantly compare against amazing tokens over and over again.

I do see the point of raising CON. STR would encourage doing things like flinging Thor's and can be tanked with Io builds. DEX is just needless, as DEX is already prolific. Increasing damage to make closer to melee ranger also makes sense.

Sadly, Favored Enemy is just an awkward ability or could do more with that. Spell casting is too narrow and off flavor and we don't even know whether class reboot will ditch spells, anyway.

Ranger Warden is kind of interesting. If any of this year's tokens opened up that class, could see this one do it, but I don't see that happening this late in the game and with how much resistance there is to opening up RoSP classes (I don't just mean from comments but things like precedent/history).

EMs aren't the most sought after trade items, so maybe just make ammo either last for all of combat or become non-consumable, though the latter does defeat the Warden ability. It's like Iktomi's for arrows rather than potions.

Ranged wounding ability, like what Withering Runestone does, is way too wordy unless keyworded, but that could represent a ranger being especially good at impairing prey.

IDK, so much of what is done in combat is attack/cast for damage. To get away from that requires significant work or the alternatives - place token, reslide, extra slide - infringe on other classes.

Harlax wrote: Looks like threads are starting to be locked.

Looking forward to the “final final. “

And the “final final final.”

MasterED wrote:

Mike Steele wrote: I have to agree to disagree with you on this. Something like that is just a minor obstacle, it won't solve the unbalanced situation of Monk dominating both Melee and Ranged. It didn't stop the MEC from being widely used.

It isn't the aspect of stop play - nothing would stop the MEC or GoFF but having to spend two slots offsets it.

Ed

Mike Steele wrote: Nerfing it like the two tokens last year would solve the problem. I think now is the time to rip that bandaid off and fix it.

MasterED wrote:

Mike Steele wrote: Nerfing it like the two tokens last year would solve the problem. I think now is the time to rip that bandaid off and fix it.

And this is where I get to agree to respectfully disagree. Those two (LoDS/CoS) were beyond OP, they were game breaking. The MEC/GoFF are just OP but not game breaking.

Ed