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TOPIC: Almost Final Transmuted Token Images! Please give these your look-see!

Almost Final Transmuted Token Images! Please give these your look-see! 3 years 3 weeks ago #157

edwin wrote:

Steven wrote: Just a thought but not much talk going on about the ranger legendary. To me it seems like a few things are happening and that’s that since most play melee rangers this isn’t strong enough to make anyone switch so no one is going to make it and since the majority see that it’s a ranged item have written it off and haven’t thrown out any criticism so no tweaks have been made to it. Then again maybe he hit the nail on the head Already I don’t know


Iffy for me since I would not use animal companion or scrolls due to need for Alchemist's Parchments. I rarely use ammo tokens. So the con and sharp shooter bonuses are solely what I am basing my need on. These would have to provide more benefit that what other options are out there for the neck slot in order for me to make one.


Very much agreed. It seems unfair that the other classes get their 'neat' factor for free, but the ranger has to spend consumables.
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Almost Final Transmuted Token Images! Please give these your look-see! 3 years 3 weeks ago #158

As every-body loves slot expanders, relic could be made better in some way to be more
neck-ro-potent, legendary could add a wrist slot. There's no possible way that would be broken, and it's really a minor change consistent with development changes late in the development cycle.
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Almost Final Transmuted Token Images! Please give these your look-see! 3 years 3 weeks ago #159

Mike Steele wrote: Should we even be taking that stuff into account? I agree, since this sword does a lot of other stuff, the damage wheel should be lower than that of a legendary one handed sword without all the extra abilities. And the Paladin sword should probably have a lower damage wheel than a Fighter legendary sword.


Why not?

There have been plenty of other comments based number of sets that may be worn in conjunction with a token, speculation about what builds of a certain type would look like, and discussion of the various combinations of tokens one could see.

Extrapolation from the base stats and trends in builds seem just as valid as any other comparison.
The lesson is this - the game is rigged. The cards are stacked. The dice are loaded.
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Almost Final Transmuted Token Images! Please give these your look-see! 3 years 3 weeks ago #160

dsypher (Luigi) wrote:

Mike Steele wrote: Should we even be taking that stuff into account? I agree, since this sword does a lot of other stuff, the damage wheel should be lower than that of a legendary one handed sword without all the extra abilities. And the Paladin sword should probably have a lower damage wheel than a Fighter legendary sword.


Why not?

There have been plenty of other comments based number of sets that may be worn in conjunction with a token, speculation about what builds of a certain type would look like, and discussion of the various combinations of tokens one could see.

Extrapolation from the base stats and trends in builds seem just as valid as any other comparison.


Because the character cards are due to get reworked. No point in factoring then in right now. TPTB will adjust themselves on the back end.
"IMHO we like to solve problems here on the forums that are only perceived problems due to a myopic view." -Bob C


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Almost Final Transmuted Token Images! Please give these your look-see! 3 years 3 weeks ago #161

MasterED wrote:

Wayne Rhodes wrote: If there isn’t enough time to make the changes it might be best to drop the paladin legendary for 2020 all together. I don’t think many of us expected 4 legendary tokens this year so moving back to 3 to me is better than the paladin legendary not being good.

There is already both Fighters, both Wizards, and Cleric coming in 2021 so adding Paladin (which would be like adding a 5th) would be too much. Plus the order was decreed when the class legendaries were announced.

Ed


If the order is set in stone then so be it, but if not I don’t mind waiting in order it get something that I feel compares well overall with the other class legendaries.
The neck slot seems like the best way forward, as much as I would like it to be the sword.
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Almost Final Transmuted Token Images! Please give these your look-see! 3 years 3 weeks ago #162

Steven wrote: Just a thought but not much talk going on about the ranger legendary. To me it seems like a few things are happening and that’s that since most play melee rangers this isn’t strong enough to make anyone switch so no one is going to make it and since the majority see that it’s a ranged item have written it off and haven’t thrown out any criticism so no tweaks have been made to it. Then again maybe he hit the nail on the head Already I don’t know


The Ranger item needs love.

I think the issue here is that the Ranger will do a lot less damage than the Monk and Rogue at ranged damage. The Monk is one of the top damage dealers in the game and will now be able to fight at range (if the Monk item goes through unchanged). The Rogue with Assassin's crossbow can do 130 points of damage on a 17+ for the first two rounds of combat (Assassin's crossbow is out of print, so I am not sure if this a fair comparison), but I am going to run with it for the rest of this post.

I would like to see the Ranger get a called shot ability (similar to the idea behind Fury - on demand damage with player agency) to give them one round of burst damage.

Ranger ranged crit with close to BIS is ~80
Rogue ranged crit with close to BIS is ~130

So, honestly +50 damage would not be too far off.

I know this is kind of an absurd suggestion, based on the eye-popping number, but I think the math supports it. The Ranger would get only one round of top tier damage, where the Rogue can get two, but would have much higher damage than the Rogue if neither character crits.
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Almost Final Transmuted Token Images! Please give these your look-see! 3 years 3 weeks ago #163

MasterED wrote:

Wayne Rhodes wrote:

Mike Steele wrote: One reason to keep it this year is that the UR is still in print.

One reason to push it back is the UR goes out of print the same year the relic goes into print

The +2 Holy Avenger is a 2019 token so it will be available next year for the Relic. If you wait till 2021 it wouldn't be and you would have to reprint having it be available for 4 consecutive years.

My money is on the Paladin legendary coming in 2020.

Ed


The +2 can be put into a alternative path for the relic or legendary later. The Holy avenger is the only UR of the class URs that doesn’t come out the same time as the relics so that is a bit odd, and putting out a token the same year as the UR is released would give it the same relic transmute life as the other URs.
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Almost Final Transmuted Token Images! Please give these your look-see! 3 years 3 weeks ago #164

Arnold wrote:

dsypher (Luigi) wrote:

Mike Steele wrote: Should we even be taking that stuff into account? I agree, since this sword does a lot of other stuff, the damage wheel should be lower than that of a legendary one handed sword without all the extra abilities. And the Paladin sword should probably have a lower damage wheel than a Fighter legendary sword.


Why not?

There have been plenty of other comments based number of sets that may be worn in conjunction with a token, speculation about what builds of a certain type would look like, and discussion of the various combinations of tokens one could see.

Extrapolation from the base stats and trends in builds seem just as valid as any other comparison.


Because the character cards are due to get reworked. No point in factoring then in right now. TPTB will adjust themselves on the back end.


There is a plethora of variables which could change in the future that would render any/all of the provided feedback, based on the information available today, moot. The frequency of monster types/abilities, the stats associated with each difficulty level, tokens required to combat dungeon effects, and changes to existing tokens are just a few.

When character cards are reworked will the change affect the fundamental principles and assumptions upon which the classes are based? I don't know; however, if the potential changes to classes are so dramatic they render our current understanding of the classes useless, I expect it to be taken into account when the designers evaluate the feedback on the 2020 tokens.
The lesson is this - the game is rigged. The cards are stacked. The dice are loaded.
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Almost Final Transmuted Token Images! Please give these your look-see! 3 years 3 weeks ago #165

OrionW wrote:

Steven wrote: Just a thought but not much talk going on about the ranger legendary. To me it seems like a few things are happening and that’s that since most play melee rangers this isn’t strong enough to make anyone switch so no one is going to make it and since the majority see that it’s a ranged item have written it off and haven’t thrown out any criticism so no tweaks have been made to it. Then again maybe he hit the nail on the head Already I don’t know


The Ranger item needs love.

I think the issue here is that the Ranger will do a lot less damage than the Monk and Rogue at ranged damage. The Monk is one of the top damage dealers in the game and will now be able to fight at range (if the Monk item goes through unchanged). The Rogue with Assassin's crossbow can do 130 points of damage on a 17+ for the first two rounds of combat (Assassin's crossbow is out of print, so I am not sure if this a fair comparison), but I am going to run with it for the rest of this post.

I would like to see the Ranger get a called shot ability (similar to the idea behind Fury - on demand damage with player agency) to give them one round of burst damage.

Ranger ranged crit with close to BIS is ~80
Rogue ranged crit with close to BIS is ~130

So, honestly +50 damage would not be too far off.

I know this is kind of an absurd suggestion, based on the eye-popping number, but I think the math supports it. The Ranger would get only one round of top tier damage, where the Rogue can get two, but would have much higher damage than the Rogue if neither character crits.


I think the problem isn't that the Ranger is underpowered at range, it's that the Monk is massively overpowered at range. If that isn't fixed, we'll have situations like this where other classes need huge ranged power boosts to keep up.

I recommend nerfing both Gloves of the Flying Fist and the relic and legendary this year. Maybe limit them to once per game like Fizzy Pack. Or use the ranged to hit or damage instead of both being melee.

This is the perfect opportunity to swap out the Monk UR ring with a nerfed GoTFF, and modify the relic and legendary accordingly. To me, this is more unbalancing than either the LoDS or CoS which were nerfed last year.
Last edit: by Mike Steele.
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Almost Final Transmuted Token Images! Please give these your look-see! 3 years 3 weeks ago #166

I implore TPTB to take a second look at the Monk transmutes.

I'll start out by saying that I do not main Monk. I personally run Polymorph Druid the majority of the time. I enjoy the flexibility of being able to Polymorph in combat situations, casting spells for ranged when I need to. Focus admittedly adds to both totals. That said - I don't dish out the most damage in either melee nor ranged (i.e. spells). It works for me, though...I like being effective at both but not necessarily at the top of either.

With +5/7 damage and GoFF built into the Monk relic and legendary, they will become the top class at both melee and ranged combat via a single legendary. If that's the intention, I think that TPTB hit it out of the park. I welcome our monk carries.
"IMHO we like to solve problems here on the forums that are only perceived problems due to a myopic view." -Bob C


Trades
My Elemental build
WTB: Onyx polymorph Potions
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Almost Final Transmuted Token Images! Please give these your look-see! 3 years 3 weeks ago #167

Steven wrote: Just a thought but not much talk going on about the ranger legendary. To me it seems like a few things are happening and that’s that since most play melee rangers this isn’t strong enough to make anyone switch so no one is going to make it and since the majority see that it’s a ranged item have written it off and haven’t thrown out any criticism so no tweaks have been made to it. Then again maybe he hit the nail on the head Already I don’t know



I LOVE the ranger relic!!!!!!
Proud member Dungeon Delver's Anonymous.

Team Kraken Killers

My name is Sean Hanlin, you killed my father, prepare to die.
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Almost Final Transmuted Token Images! Please give these your look-see! 3 years 3 weeks ago #168

Mike Steele wrote: I think the problem isn't that the Ranger is underpowered at range, it's that the Monk is massively overpowered at range. If that isn't fixed, we'll have situations like this where other classes need huge ranged power boosts to keep up.

I recommend nerfing both Gloves of the Flying Fist and the relic and legendary this year. Maybe limit them to once per game like Fizzy Pack. Or use the ranged to hit or damage instead of both being melee.

This is the perfect opportunity to swap out the Monk UR ring with a nerfed GoTFF, and modify the relic and legendary accordingly. To me, this is more unbalancing than either the LoDS or CoS which were nerfed last year.

There is the Mike I know and love! ;-)

So ever since 2017 when TPTB put +5 CHA on the Aron's Sunhide Robe (Legendary) they said the additional CHA was for Monks and there would be something cool coming for it. Maybe there needs to be a CHA requirement. Monk's base is only a 11 CHA and there are only two real items in the game that give a stat bump to CHA (that Robe and the Crown of Charisma). If there was a CHA 15 requirement it would mean they would have to use their Head slot (like we have in Mad Evoker's Charm before) to equip them.

Just offering a solution besides nerfing more 2014 tokens.

Ed
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