TOPIC: Almost Final Transmuted Token Images! Please give these your look-see!

Wayne Rhodes wrote: If there isn’t enough time to make the changes it might be best to drop the paladin legendary for 2020 all together. I don’t think many of us expected 4 legendary tokens this year so moving back to 3 to me is better than the paladin legendary not being good.

There is already both Fighters, both Wizards, and Cleric coming in 2021 so adding Paladin (which would be like adding a 5th) would be too much. Plus the order was decreed when the class legendaries were announced.

Ed

Philip Goodman wrote: I was initially apprehensive about seeing the legendary gaining the effects of all 7 teeth.

I don't believe that is the intent. It is to unlock Psychic, grant an additional use of a Psychic power, and give the Monk access to Tier 7 ability (Negate 10 points of Cold, Fire, Shock, or Sonic damage (once) - without having all 7 teeth).

Ed

Wayne Rhodes wrote:

PalaDan wrote:

Wayne Rhodes wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote: It appears to me that the reason the Avenger conversation is not converging is because people are valuing the fact that it's in the mainhand slot differently.

Might I suggest we end this discussion by:

1. Move the legendary to the neck slot.

2. Give it powers similar to:

+6 STR
May guard 3 players total
Grace 2/game
+15 LoH 1/game
Auto-kill evil outsiders om 20 while wielding +2 Holy Avenger

3. In the recipe, have one of the ingredients be:

One of +2 Holy Avenger or Amulet of Guarding


I think the above neck item "looks" a lot more like a legendary than the current weapon (also it makes the guard buff permanent).

To those concerned about "now 40% of the party uses the Paladin's AC!!!" - just have monsters balanced to have: 1/3 attacks melee, 1/3 ranged, 1/3 spell/AoE. Problem solved.

I would support this concept. I would rather have a good neck slot item then the current Holy avenger. Maybe make the extra damage sacred and if the auto kill was kept just change it to any holy sword to give room to improve in the future.

I agree that this actually wouldn't be a bad option. It might appease all the non-paladin players arguing the "free neck slot", and paladin players might be motivated to make it.

The real irony is, most of the powers on the token benefit any player in the party other than the paladin.

If there isn’t enough time to make the changes it might be best to drop the paladin legendary for 2020 all together. I don’t think many of us expected 4 legendary tokens this year so moving back to 3 to me is better than the paladin legendary not being good.

One reason to keep it this year is that the UR is still in print.

MasterED wrote:

Philip Goodman wrote: I was initially apprehensive about seeing the legendary gaining the effects of all 7 teeth.

I don't believe that is the intent. It is to unlock Psychic, grant an additional use of a Psychic power, and give the Monk access to Tier 7 ability (Negate 10 points of Cold, Fire, Shock, or Sonic damage (once) - without having all 7 teeth).

Ed

According to the notes and all of the posts from Jeff on this matter, the necklace provides the monk with the entire set of abilities, from tier 0-7. It mimics the psychic granting abilities of the full set of teeth. So the monk can choose from any of the abilities, and perform a total of two of them with the necklace equipped per dungeon.

This can be seen in the current notes thread here

jpotter wrote:

MasterED wrote:

Philip Goodman wrote: I was initially apprehensive about seeing the legendary gaining the effects of all 7 teeth.

I don't believe that is the intent. It is to unlock Psychic, grant an additional use of a Psychic power, and give the Monk access to Tier 7 ability (Negate 10 points of Cold, Fire, Shock, or Sonic damage (once) - without having all 7 teeth).

Ed

According to the notes and all of the posts from Jeff on this matter, the necklace provides the monk with the entire set of abilities, from tier 0-7. It mimics the psychic granting abilities of the full set of teeth. So the monk can choose from any of the abilities, and perform a total of two of them with the necklace equipped per dungeon.

This can be seen in the current notes thread here

Good catch, and I would be against a Monk's legendary mimicking the power of all 7 Teeth.

Might be better to say, +1 psychic power and DR 10 against 1 effect

Ed

I may not be the primary audience for the paladin relic/legendary. I am an audience.

I would transmute my UR up the path.

Expectations seem to have grown immensely with what relics and legendaries are supposed to do.

Once upon a time, a +2 UR became a +3 relic. Baton of Focus gained +1/+1/+1 to hit/damage/spell stuff. Staff of Focus same thing. Slayer Sword less than that as just +1/+1. Redoubt piece gained +2 to one save with either no AC increase or 1 AC increase. Starhide is functionally just +2 Dex over Moonhide these days. Greater Cloak of Destiny +1 saves.

Relics became legendaries. Deathcleaver, an insane weapon at multiple levels, got +2/+2. Relsa's got +2 Focus, which was kind of good but gets cheapened over time as absolute numbers keep increasing. Surtr's +2 STR.

If all the +5 Holy Avenger did was +3/+3 over +2 Holy Avenger, that would be the old norm. Not saying that Welfor's model makes sense for the class specific legendaries or even any legendary today. But, I can see at least having some perspective on what relics and legendaries are supposed to be in the game, which is not the end all and be all of tokens.

I would imagine that the exact same idea, transported into the distant past of a few years ago, would have seen much weaker tokens because relics and legendaries were upgrades but linear upgrades, not linear upgrades with four more abilities attached.

As for moving to neck slot, I don't even understand the thinking. It's a thematic fail on what was advertised. It requires all sorts of convoluted engineering that a weapon upgrade doesn't. It would make the paladin weaker unless the neck version was stronger than what would be the most powerful 1h weapon intended just for melee in the game.

Philip Goodman wrote: I wanted to respond with some positive feedback for the Monk relic and legendary. I think they look great. Adding in the Psychic power and +1 use is especially cool. I think the damage could be reduced by 1 or 2 and they would still be pretty great.

I will break down my interpretation of it and discuss a few things:

Monk Relic

• +5 Sacred dmg FoB
  
• Stun Fist works 19-20
  
• may hit Ranged target with Flurry of Blows

Monk Legendary

• +7 Sacred dmg FoB
  
• Stun Fist works 18-20
  
• May hit Ranged target w/ FoB
  
• Imbues Psychic power w/ +1 additional use
  
• Unlocks up to power 7

I like segmenting the effects into other recognizable tokens, if I can, and have done so below:

Monk Relic

• +5 melee damage
  
• Ring of Stunning Fist
  
• Gloves of the Flying Fist

Monk Legendary

• +7 melee damage
  
• +1 Ring of Stunning Fist (if an ultra rare version of Ring of Stunning Fist were to exist)
  
• Gloves of the Flying Fist
  
• Dark Disciple’s Shirt
  
• The effect of having 7 teeth

I was initially apprehensive about seeing the legendary gaining the effects of all 7 teeth. I felt that it detracts from my tooth investment so far and only grants me access to power 7 one year early.

But then I considered how annoying it would be for someone to obtain or create this legendary in several years and then have to chase down difficult-to-find teeth to power it up. I think granting access to 7 teeth powers is okay and one of the less messy ways to make it work.

I really like the granting psychic power and +1 additional use similar to Dark Disciple’s Shirt without the restriction of using a different power. Very flavorful.

It is nice to see Gloves of the Flying Fist in the monk relic and legendary.

The damage of the relic and legendary is on the higher end, as I mentioned before. Reducing the damage by 1 or 2 may be appropriate and would still have the relic and legendary token on my "must make" list.

All in all, I am really excited about the current state of the monk relic and legendary tokens and am happy with changes made over the revision iterations.

Thank you again, TD, for letting us be a part of token development and listening to our feedback!

+1

Pally Relic/Legendary: Guard isn't OP, so it should read "+1 to # Guarded", not just once per game. I think the token in general needs a real power boost. Yes it has the autokill 'evil outsider' clause, but how often are we going to see one of those in the coming years? I'm sure there will be years where we don't even see one at all. Its a wicked strong ability, yes; but there will be years where its pointless for its wielders. I just think it needs something more. Other class relics/legendaries can see all their abilities used with ease every year, lets not turn the Pally Relic/Legendary to a 'Sword in the Stone' scenario. I want to see those things out there every year.

Milambus (Jake) wrote:

Templar wrote: That’s my read as well, and if so, that is effectively giving the legendary the power of a multi year eldritch, a 2018 UR shirt, and a psychic enabler.

That’s... kind of way out of balance. I’d be far more down balance wise if this granted psychic and (potentially) another use of a psychic power.

We don't know everything that the eldritch will do yet. Presumably it will at least give Tier 8 power (access to the special event in 2021). The 2019 UR shirt was a psychic enabler also. It also won't count towards the Eldritch set bonus.

That being said, I would be fine with removing the Tier-7 Psychic Power part of package.

Templar wrote: But I hope it isn’t counting as possessing all the teeth while you wear it. Otherwise, it will likely make the 7 year transmute of all the teeth absolutely bananas or redundant with this iteration (also if I’m interpreting that token read correctly)

No, it won't count as equipping teeth for the Skull. Jeff has stated that the transmuted token won't even count as having the teeth equipped for the Skull.

I wasn’t referencing the skull. I was referencing the fact that this legendary is filling the role set up by a multi year collection currently operated by the teeth. This sets a very strange precedent.

What I meant by redundancy is that it is unlikely the psychic power of the completed item would exceed much of the parts - maybe a bit, but it won’t be far off due to balance purposes. Yes it isn’t designed, but the writing is there.

Kilts made a better kilt.
Rod pieces gave all part bonuses with a 1/year special use.
Ring gave a better ring.
Boots gave a composite boot.
Etc.

I am not saying it isn’t neat. I am saying it leaves the collective teeth very little room to play and feel the current neck piece is exceeding its lane in an effort to grant KI powers - which while neat, seems way out of balance for the legendary.

We already have it adding 14 dmg for 2 hands, which from other neck damage/str boosters is already a bump. The stun range increase is huge. The ranged FoB is thematic and epic.

I just worry that this steps on the toes of other tokens that folks building this already have, while essentially filling a similar special ability with something not even released yet, but released over the last 5 years and not slated for completion until 2021.

(Which is why I like granting additional uses of psychic abilities, and even granting initial psychic abilities, but less keen on just granting the equivalent of all the teeth)

(I def like the changes to the avenger, however! Grace is a great addition!)

Templar wrote:

Milambus (Jake) wrote:

Templar wrote: That’s my read as well, and if so, that is effectively giving the legendary the power of a multi year eldritch, a 2018 UR shirt, and a psychic enabler.

That’s... kind of way out of balance. I’d be far more down balance wise if this granted psychic and (potentially) another use of a psychic power.

We don't know everything that the eldritch will do yet. Presumably it will at least give Tier 8 power (access to the special event in 2021). The 2019 UR shirt was a psychic enabler also. It also won't count towards the Eldritch set bonus.

That being said, I would be fine with removing the Tier-7 Psychic Power part of package.

Templar wrote: But I hope it isn’t counting as possessing all the teeth while you wear it. Otherwise, it will likely make the 7 year transmute of all the teeth absolutely bananas or redundant with this iteration (also if I’m interpreting that token read correctly)

No, it won't count as equipping teeth for the Skull. Jeff has stated that the transmuted token won't even count as having the teeth equipped for the Skull.

I wasn’t referencing the skull. I was referencing the fact that this legendary is filling the role set up by a multi year collection currently operated by the teeth. This sets a very strange precedent.

What I meant by redundancy is that it is unlikely the psychic power of the completed item would exceed much of the parts - maybe a bit, but it won’t be far off due to balance purposes. Yes it isn’t designed, but the writing is there.

Kilts made a better kilt.
Rod pieces gave all part bonuses with a 1/year special use.
Ring gave a better ring.
Boots gave a composite boot.
Etc.

I am not saying it isn’t neat. I am saying it leaves the collective teeth very little room to play and feel the current neck piece is exceeding its lane in an effort to grant KI powers - which while neat, seems way out of balance for the legendary.

We already have it adding 14 dmg for 2 hands, which from other neck damage/str boosters is already a bump. The stun range increase is huge. The ranged FoB is thematic and epic.

I just worry that this steps on the toes of other tokens that folks building this already have, while essentially filling a similar special ability with something not even released yet, but released over the last 5 years and not slated for completion until 2021.

(Which is why I like granting additional uses of psychic abilities, and even granting initial psychic abilities, but less keen on just granting the equivalent of all the teeth)

You've got a great point, it doesn't seem right for just one of the powers of this overpowered legendary to be duplicating the powers of a Grand Eldritch token that people are spending seven years to transmute.

Mike Steele wrote: You've got a great point, it doesn't seem right for just one of the powers of this overpowered legendary to be duplicating the powers of a Grand Eldritch token that people are spending seven years to transmute.

Where is Mike and what have you done with him? This is twice I have agreed with you.

Ed