TOPIC: Almost Final Transmuted Token Images! Please give these your look-see!

Harlax wrote:

Flik wrote: Hahaha cleric bringing the rear. Obviously someone has to be there but hah.

Damage is not their job.

Completely agree.

Wayne Rhodes wrote:

Rob F wrote:

Wayne Rhodes wrote:

PalaDan wrote:

Wade Schwendemann wrote: Grace is a great effect, though is +3 the right number?

Are you thinking higher or lower?

Wade Schwendemann wrote: I would like to see guard be the entire run rather than just one room.

Same.

Basically if guard is full dungeon and everything else on this token is left as is currently, I think the Holy avengers is worth making. If you don’t already have a +5 weapon it still might be worth making as is. For me already having a good +5 weapon, the key to my interest is full time guard. Or at least bake in some sacred damage to give it some extra punch.

Right now dial wise it’s a sub pare weapon for a legendary. Viper strike is better, Death cleaver is better and Welfor’s is better. While the damage wheel on Thor’s is worse, it does get help from being ranged and extended crit range but probably not a fair comparison. Only the two Focus weapon are true melee and are worse and the Druid/Cleric weapon is very close to the same damage.
The other abilities are good but without guard or a better dial it’s just not enough for the class legendary. Guard was always the one ability that could not be traded off when discussing the Holy avenger. And some of the early versions with guard were not good enough.

Which is a better token the current Holy avenger posted or Drue’s +5 Baton of Focus.

I would personally say Drue’s +5 Baton of Focus is fare and away better and it doesn’t count as either of those classes legendary.

Right now the +5 Holy Avenger is interesting but not great IMO

Welfor's is better?? If your a paladin and you had to chose between the current version of the Avenger and Welfor's you'd pick Welfor's? I don't see why anyone would.

I was discussing the weapon part Welfor's in that part of the post.

Then I compared the Holy avenger to Drue’s +5 Baton of Focus. this is more a 1 to 1 companion

Drue’s +5 Baton of Focus has a damage wheel almost as good as the Holy Avenger
The +5 focus ability is the same as the legendary ring
The Holy avenger doesn’t have anything on it currently that would be at UR level. If it had the second guard then that is a UR level ability and a bunch of interesting from time to time abilities, many of which I would only use if they didn’t cost me slots if they were there own tokens.
So of the class oriented weapons this would be the worst.

Dru's Baton is not a 1:1 comparison. You don't get the benefit of +5 focus at the same time as the damage from the weapon. You either have to swing your weapon for the melee damage OR cast a spell. And let's face it if you are building a Wizard to cast you aren't swinging anyway so their Staff is basically a +5 Focus item.

And IMO the Avenger DOES have a UR power. It's a free neck slot compared to the other melee classes. Barbarian, Monk, Ranger, soon to be Fighter, and you could even make a case for the Rogue all are LOSING a neck Token in exchange for their Legendary. Most likely Valhalla, Stu's or Champion. So if you look at all the other melee builds that equip their Legendary they lose stats they currently have today. When the Pally "uses" his/her Legendary no change in stats. That's huge.

Might I propose for Grace, the effect be: Roll a d20 twice, keeping the higher result?

This:

a. Is better than +3
b. Is more fun, who doesn't love rolling dice
c. Has a built in reason why it needs to be declared before the roll

The expected roll is 13.8, around 3.3 higher than one d20.

Here are the odds of each outcome on 2d20 take the biggest:

# %
1 0.25
2 0.75
3 1.25
4 1.75
5 2.25
6 2.75
7 3.25
8 3.75
9 4.25
10 4.75
11 5.25
12 5.75
13 6.25
14 6.75
15 7.25
16 7.75
17 8.25
18 8.75
19 9.25
20 9.75

You asked for non-feely so I’ll leave it at the monk gaining psychic is very interesting, but doesn’t initially strike up an image of a monk. I like this token set and I cannot give an analytical reason to change them. I would ask if they could all be like the rogue and Druid and just reference token dB for complete list of abilities but I get putting all the info on a token also.

Thanks

It appears to me that the reason the Avenger conversation is not converging is because people are valuing the fact that it's in the mainhand slot differently.

Might I suggest we end this discussion by:

1. Move the legendary to the neck slot.

2. Give it powers similar to:

+6 STR
May guard 3 players total
Grace 2/game
+15 LoH 1/game
Auto-kill evil outsiders om 20 while wielding +2 Holy Avenger

3. In the recipe, have one of the ingredients be:

One of +2 Holy Avenger or Amulet of Guarding


I think the above neck item "looks" a lot more like a legendary than the current weapon (also it makes the guard buff permanent).

To those concerned about "now 40% of the party uses the Paladin's AC!!!" - just have monsters balanced to have: 1/3 attacks melee, 1/3 ranged, 1/3 spell/AoE. Problem solved.

+1

Wayne Rhodes wrote: I’d like to see guard go to a full time extra guard. Really it was the best part of all the earlier +5 Holy avengers. I also feel it’s needed to make this a worthwhile legendary.

I like grace and think it’s very interesting. I like the lay on hands bonus.

On balance I’ll probably not make this legendary without the full extra guard, that’s the difference between being a very sold legendary and being just ok. Part of it is now all of the ability’s are x number per game rather than a continuous effect. Just doesn’t seem all that special, no real benefit for being equipped.

Matthew Hayward wrote: Table:
docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1PfC7x2PcmM7HeDjKHR6OF50GsTOeNijC9otVqYC7hzY/edit#gid=114143415

Builds: docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1PfC7x2PcmM7HeDjKHR6OF50GsTOeNijC9otVqYC7hzY/edit#gid=2075300529

Whats an Ioun Stone Eternal Ice Crystal?

Maybe I'm misreading the sheet, but it looks like Barbarian is set to 48% hit rate and 17% crit rate. But Rogue is set to 60% and 5%.

Milambus (Jake) wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote: Table:
docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1PfC7x2PcmM7HeDjKHR6OF50GsTOeNijC9otVqYC7hzY/edit#gid=114143415

Builds: docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1PfC7x2PcmM7HeDjKHR6OF50GsTOeNijC9otVqYC7hzY/edit#gid=2075300529

Whats an Ioun Stone Eternal Ice Crystal?

Maybe I'm misreading the sheet, but it looks like Barbarian is set to 48% hit rate and 17% crit rate. But Rogue is set to 60% and 5%.

I might have goofed up the Rogue.

The Barbarians rates are set there to make the math work our right for 2 occurences of Fury that crit at 60% (rush job)

Ioun Stone Eternal Ice Crystal is the name of Ioun Stone Infernal Prism or whatever from an earlier design iteration last year.

Wade Schwendemann wrote: This is a completely inaccurate comparison. Every other class can also equip Welfor's, Averon's, Thor's, Asher's

If we start counting the weapon part as a "benefit," we are completely missing the point.

IF the guard was the whole time, the legendary would have (over Welfor's):

Your choice of +2Str/Dex/Con, +3 Str/+3 Dex, +3 Str/+4 Con, may guard an additional player, or may wear 3 more charms

+15 LoH

Give +3 to saves 2/game

20 kills evil outsider

That would only be true IF guard were working the entire time.

Keep in mind that equipping this also means the Paladin cant use the new 2H only bracers, like their Averon's wielding counterparts.

Honestly, it isnt weak, and as it is a legendary it shouldn't be.

Please don't try to convince me its OP when compared to the Barbarian or Monk legendary necklaces.

This is a team game, and we should let people support their team. Give the +5 (at least) guard for the whole game.

If you don't want to consider the weapon as a benefit and the Avenger stays as is and you compare it to the Barbarian class you have the following if both players equip their Legendary:

Barbarian (assuming Valhalla was equipped):
-3 Str
-4 Con
+10 damage
1 Rage
2x Fury

Paladin (assuming AoG stays equipped):

Guard extra character entire game (AoG)
20 slide kills evil outsider
2x Grace
Guard a third character once
+15 Lay on hands

Even? Guess it depends on how you look at it.

Matthew Hayward wrote: It appears to me that the reason the Avenger conversation is not converging is because people are valuing the fact that it's in the mainhand slot differently.

Might I suggest we end this discussion by:

1. Move the legendary to the neck slot.

2. Give it powers similar to:

+6 STR
May guard 3 players total
Grace 2/game
+15 LoH 1/game
Auto-kill evil outsiders om 20 while wielding +2 Holy Avenger

3. In the recipe, have one of the ingredients be:

One of +2 Holy Avenger or Amulet of Guarding


I think the above neck may seem "looks" a lot more like a legendary than the current weapon (also it makes the guard buff permanent).

To those concerned about "now 40% of the party uses the Paladin's AC!!!" - just have monsters balanced to have: 1/3 attacks melee, 1/3 ranged, 1/3 spell/AoE. Problem solved.

What about the Relic +3 Holy Avenger?

Rob F wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote: It appears to me that the reason the Avenger conversation is not converging is because people are valuing the fact that it's in the mainhand slot differently.

Might I suggest we end this discussion by:

1. Move the legendary to the neck slot.

2. Give it powers similar to:

+6 STR
May guard 3 players total
Grace 2/game
+15 LoH 1/game
Auto-kill evil outsiders om 20 while wielding +2 Holy Avenger

3. In the recipe, have one of the ingredients be:

One of +2 Holy Avenger or Amulet of Guarding


I think the above neck may seem "looks" a lot more like a legendary than the current weapon (also it makes the guard buff permanent).

To those concerned about "now 40% of the party uses the Paladin's AC!!!" - just have monsters balanced to have: 1/3 attacks melee, 1/3 ranged, 1/3 spell/AoE. Problem solved.

What about the Relic +3 Holy Avenger?

Drop it and similar middle ground:

Amulet of Nimh:

+3 STR
Grace 1/game
+10 to LoH

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Rob F wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote: It appears to me that the reason the Avenger conversation is not converging is because people are valuing the fact that it's in the mainhand slot differently.

Might I suggest we end this discussion by:

1. Move the legendary to the neck slot.

2. Give it powers similar to:

+6 STR
May guard 3 players total
Grace 2/game
+15 LoH 1/game
Auto-kill evil outsiders om 20 while wielding +2 Holy Avenger

3. In the recipe, have one of the ingredients be:

One of +2 Holy Avenger or Amulet of Guarding


I think the above neck may seem "looks" a lot more like a legendary than the current weapon (also it makes the guard buff permanent).

To those concerned about "now 40% of the party uses the Paladin's AC!!!" - just have monsters balanced to have: 1/3 attacks melee, 1/3 ranged, 1/3 spell/AoE. Problem solved.

What about the Relic +3 Holy Avenger?

Drop it and similar middle ground:

Amulet of Nimh:

+3 STR
Grace 1/game
+10 to LoH

So you suggest no guard added to the relic?

If this is the case, in your runs, which would you have your pally use to protect you and your team (if you are not the pally) Amulet of guarding or the proposed relic?