TOPIC: Almost Final Ultra Rare Token Images! Please give these your look-see!

Bob Chasan wrote:

Mike Steele wrote: I'm fine with it at 3, I think the target audience for this probably doesn't have four great IS. I suspect the change was made to make it more equal to similar previous tokens, so people that just got those other tokens don't have huge buyer's remorse.

You have to think about newbies, the stones they have don’t have to be great but they want to equip each and everyone of them. It doesn’t matter whether their common, uncommon, rare or whatever. I see it in the coaching rooms they want to have something on every slot

Agreed with Bob.

@ Mike - I think you're looking at the subject the wrong way.

We should be designing more Ioun Stones that are good. Moving forward, I'd like to see more Ioun Stones that record effects on the party card at the rare level. It shouldn't be a matter of- they probably don't have 4 good ones anyway.

Ioun Stone Tourmaline Tear is a great addition this year. I hope we have something of its ilk every year from 2020 on.

Arnold wrote:

Bob Chasan wrote:

Mike Steele wrote: I'm fine with it at 3, I think the target audience for this probably doesn't have four great IS. I suspect the change was made to make it more equal to similar previous tokens, so people that just got those other tokens don't have huge buyer's remorse.

You have to think about newbies, the stones they have don’t have to be great but they want to equip each and everyone of them. It doesn’t matter whether their common, uncommon, rare or whatever. I see it in the coaching rooms they want to have something on every slot

Agreed with Bob.

@ Mike - I think you're looking at the subject the wrong way.

We should be designing more Ioun Stones that are good. Moving forward, I'd like to see more Ioun Stones that record effects on the party card at the rare level. It shouldn't be a matter of- they probably don't have 4 good ones anyway.

Ioun Stone Tourmaline Tear is a great addition this year. I hope we have something of its ilk every year from 2020 on.

The player mats in the coaching room still have 3 IS slots on them, right? New players probably don't even know they can fit 5 IS. I didn't until I installed a character app.

I'm also extremely confused about the arguments against a 3 IS limit, given last year's complaints that the Ring of Fateful Heroism was too good compared to the Medallion of Heroism. Cook's Hat is dramatically better than the still in print RoFH in the context of someone who only has 1 or 2 URs.

Mike Steele wrote:

Bob Chasan wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Wade Schwendemann wrote:

Allen John wrote: I...I still want the hat...

...I probably shouldn't say that, though, since I don't want to convince Jeff that it's okay to listen to everyone else when they say "new" players don't need nice things.

(Seriously, though, blocking two Stones is *way* less of a drawback than blocking a ring *and* giving -1 to saves. +1 to saves is my best Stone, and this is only asking me to give up my fourth-best.)

I think most of us want 5he hat to go back to a 4 IS max, rather than 3

I'm fine with it at 3, I think the target audience for this probably doesn't have four great IS. I suspect the change was made to make it more equal to similar previous tokens, so people that just got those other tokens don't have huge buyer's remorse.

You have to think about newbies, the stones they have don’t have to be great but they want to equip each and everyone of them. It doesn’t matter whether their common, uncommon, rare or whatever. I see it in the coaching rooms they want to have something on every slot

I think this is designed specifically for newbies. I think any disappointment in not getting to use their fourth and fifth best stone is more than offset by the happiness of playing 5th level.

Mike, I respectfully disagree with you. I believe choosing which tokens to use decision get easier mentally the more choices one has. So someone who has lots of options some Clearly less good than others, are able to make that decision easier.

Bob Chasan wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Bob Chasan wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Wade Schwendemann wrote:

Allen John wrote: I...I still want the hat...

...I probably shouldn't say that, though, since I don't want to convince Jeff that it's okay to listen to everyone else when they say "new" players don't need nice things.

(Seriously, though, blocking two Stones is *way* less of a drawback than blocking a ring *and* giving -1 to saves. +1 to saves is my best Stone, and this is only asking me to give up my fourth-best.)

I think most of us want 5he hat to go back to a 4 IS max, rather than 3

I'm fine with it at 3, I think the target audience for this probably doesn't have four great IS. I suspect the change was made to make it more equal to similar previous tokens, so people that just got those other tokens don't have huge buyer's remorse.

You have to think about newbies, the stones they have don’t have to be great but they want to equip each and everyone of them. It doesn’t matter whether their common, uncommon, rare or whatever. I see it in the coaching rooms they want to have something on every slot

I think this is designed specifically for newbies. I think any disappointment in not getting to use their fourth and fifth best stone is more than offset by the happiness of playing 5th level.

Mike, I respectfully disagree with you. I believe choosing which tokens to use decision get easier mentally the more choices one has. So someone who has lots of options some Clearly less good than others, are able to make that decision easier.

We're not really in disagreement. I do agree that people would prefer to get a UR with zero restrictions that grants fifth level. If they can't get with zero restrictions, they'd like as few as possible. That's probably true in general.

That said, precedent shows that a UR that grants fifth level is going to have restrictions. If the hat allowed four Ioun Stones, I think it would be far better than similar tokens in the past. I think it's more balanced with past similar tokens by only allowing three. Even at three IS, I think it's better than past similar tokens.

If someone wants to gain a level with no negative modifiers, there are several ways to do it, they're just likely to be more expensive.

Endgame wrote: The player mats in the coaching room still have 3 IS slots on them, right? New players probably don't even know they can fit 5 IS. I didn't until I installed a character app.

No, they have 5 - you can see here: truedungeon.com/newsletter/Token_Mat_Final.jpg

Ed

MasterED wrote:

Endgame wrote: The player mats in the coaching room still have 3 IS slots on them, right? New players probably don't even know they can fit 5 IS. I didn't until I installed a character app.

No, they have 5 - you can see here: truedungeon.com/newsletter/Token_Mat_Final.jpg

Ed

Very nice. Did they have them printed out last gen con, and I just wasn't paying attention?

Endgame wrote:

Mike Steele wrote: I think the Bracers of Reckless Fury, combined with the Legendary token damage, is excessive. As much as I'd love to outfit this token as is, perhaps +4 damage is better, that's twice the rare level damage.

FYI, +6 is essentially the lowest that it can be to be useful without being outclassed by suitcase players. If this becomes +4 to 2H damage, I recommend the following for all Barbarians from this set:

Buy Charm Bracelets (or arcane earcuff) instead of Bracers of Reckless Fury
Use extra charm slots to slot in Charm of Glory and Dracolitch charm or Greater Onyx Charm
Use extra Ring slot granted by Charm of Glory to fit Ring of Brilliance

Wrist slot now gives +5 damage

“Twice the rare level damage” is a funny way of saying “+2 damage, none of which is typed, with a minus 2 AC drawback for all but one class and a limitation on two handed weapons.”

Something like +2 str is the default difference between rare and ur.

Something like +2 damage is the default difference between one handed and two handed damage boost token.

So a UR version of Bracers of Fire limited to 2 handers might look like: +2 str, +4 fire damage, two handers only.

By those lights this token looks fine to me - maybe even a tad weak.

What would a future ur melee usable by all Bracers look like in a world where this token goes to +4 damage with a -2 AC drawback for most classes? Very little room between that and the rare left.

jpotter wrote: I like the maximums for charms and iouns. Would we be correct to assume these will be new maximums going forward, and not just with these specific tokens?

Yep..these are the max number for the future, too. We thought it might be nice to put this info on the token to help new folks not buy too many Charms and expanders.

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Endgame wrote:

Mike Steele wrote: I think the Bracers of Reckless Fury, combined with the Legendary token damage, is excessive. As much as I'd love to outfit this token as is, perhaps +4 damage is better, that's twice the rare level damage.

FYI, +6 is essentially the lowest that it can be to be useful without being outclassed by suitcase players. If this becomes +4 to 2H damage, I recommend the following for all Barbarians from this set:

Buy Charm Bracelets (or arcane earcuff) instead of Bracers of Reckless Fury
Use extra charm slots to slot in Charm of Glory and Dracolitch charm or Greater Onyx Charm
Use extra Ring slot granted by Charm of Glory to fit Ring of Brilliance

Wrist slot now gives +5 damage

“Twice the rare level damage” is a funny way of saying “+2 damage, none of which is typed, with a minus 2 AC drawback for all but one class and a limitation on two handed weapons.”

Something like +2 str is the default difference between rare and ur.

Something like +2 damage is the default difference between one handed and two handed damage boost token.

So a UR version of Bracers of Fire limited to 2 handers might look like: +2 str, +4 fire damage, two handers only.

By those lights this token looks fine to me - maybe even a tad weak.

What would a future ur melee usable by all Bracers look like in a world where this token goes to +4 damage with a -2 AC drawback for most classes? Very little room between that and the rare left.

I agree the minus AC isn't needed, I think +4 damage with no drawbacks would make a great UR, and that quite a few people would outfit it.

+2 STR equates to +1 to hit / +1 damage, so an extra +2 damage is equivalent. Worse in some cases, better in others.

Mike Steele wrote: Taborlin's Key - I still think this should go back to +3 healing, which is equivalent to the uncommon Linked Shirt of Healing.

Not that I see the two being all that related, but we can use "TD math" to try to make the comparison.

LSoH requires two uncommon slots over two players. "Average" bonus for each shirt, then, is 1.5. Wearing a LSoH precludes two other shirts being worn - as the other uncommon shirts are kind of narrow in most cases, let's say a common, Raider's, and a rare, Vitality. So, max hp "average" +2 by not wearing LSoH. Ratio of max hp to heal hp is not clear, likely being highly variable mostly off of what one's max hp total is (I'd much rather max hp if under 30, much rather heal hp if over 50).

Of course, at the point where someone in the party is slotlessly in the vicinity of Taborlin's Key, I would imagine the healer would be running something like Shirt of Focus. SoF is kind of lame, being one less healing than LSoH, but it still "averages" .5 more healing per shirt slot. Healee can be running a shirt, maybe Shirt of Simplicity for +3 to max hp if Charm slots 8, 9, and 10 are not filled.

Endgame wrote:

Arnold wrote:

Bob Chasan wrote:

Mike Steele wrote: I'm fine with it at 3, I think the target audience for this probably doesn't have four great IS. I suspect the change was made to make it more equal to similar previous tokens, so people that just got those other tokens don't have huge buyer's remorse.

You have to think about newbies, the stones they have don’t have to be great but they want to equip each and everyone of them. It doesn’t matter whether their common, uncommon, rare or whatever. I see it in the coaching rooms they want to have something on every slot

Agreed with Bob.

@ Mike - I think you're looking at the subject the wrong way.

We should be designing more Ioun Stones that are good. Moving forward, I'd like to see more Ioun Stones that record effects on the party card at the rare level. It shouldn't be a matter of- they probably don't have 4 good ones anyway.

Ioun Stone Tourmaline Tear is a great addition this year. I hope we have something of its ilk every year from 2020 on.

The player mats in the coaching room still have 3 IS slots on them, right? New players probably don't even know they can fit 5 IS. I didn't until I installed a character app.

I'm also extremely confused about the arguments against a 3 IS limit, given last year's complaints that the Ring of Fateful Heroism was too good compared to the Medallion of Heroism. Cook's Hat is dramatically better than the still in print RoFH in the context of someone who only has 1 or 2 URs.

5 Stones, 3 charms

www.truedungeon.com/resources/item/51-character-class-guide

I would turn the Semi-Lich Skull to a Rare (shouldn't have to pay UR prices to get the hp from unused teeth). Replace it with a Quiver of Annoinment reprint.

Ed