Welcome, Guest
Username: Password: Remember me

TOPIC: 2020 Transmuted Token Images

2020 Transmuted Token Images 1 year 2 months ago #97

The instakill isn't going anywhere. It's on the UR fron last year.

Whether we "need" it, it's there. Banishing outsiders is not going to come up often. For anyone asking if something is an outsider, the DM should know that and tell you if it happens. Anything Demon or Devil like is an outsider, in my experience.

Sacrifice I agree it could go, and if there were a corner case where a new player pulled this from a treasure box then played 4th level Paladin on their next run, they would definitely be confused.

Guard is great. Lay on Hands as well, though it makes sense to be +10 to first LoH, just for tracking.

Maybe +2/+4 saves.

Also, thinking forward, the more we put on this, the less freedom we have to redsign paladin, unless we dont think we are going to need to.

Now, can we please talk about how amazing Barbaian and Monk are here?
First ever death in True Horde
"Well, with you guarding 2 players, that means you take 90. Are you dead?"
-Incognito

My token shop/trade thread: Wade's Wide World of Wonder 

My Current Paladin Build 
The topic has been locked.

2020 Transmuted Token Images 1 year 2 months ago #98

Has there been any consideration of making the Barb Legendary always raging instead of +2 rage. It is nearly the same, but would allow the rage to be added to the character card, and it would be one fewer thing to have to tell the DM at the beginning of each fight.

Either way, I think the Barbarian Relic/Legendary tokens are at a good place.
The topic has been locked.

2020 Transmuted Token Images 1 year 2 months ago #99

Beertram wrote:

OrionW wrote:

jpotter wrote: The druid legendary is also awesome. Beertram was just wrecking things with it. Definitely heard a DM or two give some "wow"s after calculating his damage on certain things after factoring in the extra damage from shape-shifting appropriately. (EDIT: Beertram informed me he was only using the RELIC - jeeeeeez)


First there is very little difference in damage between the Druid legendary and relic. Second you keep bringing up this Druid build as justification for OP legendaries and I would ask that you stop. As someone that has transmuted the Druid legendary and used it at Orgins, I can tell you that your posts are wrong. Either have Beertram post his own thoughts, or at least show us some damage calculations to support your perceived balance between items.


Are you looking to trade that lousy under-powered legendary??? :)

My build with the relic has me at +17 to hit, +31 damage while polymorphed. And with Iktomi's it would only go up to +18/+32 or +17/+33 depending on which current shirt I swap in. So am I the greatest damage dealer out there? No, but I am also +16 on heal spells and +18 on damage spells. So the druid can fill a lot of roles. I like the druid relic & legendary because I like the flavor of it. It is fun to play. I don't care if another class is doing more melee damage. Some should do more than the druid.

Maybe Iktomi's should have added some focus, and yes, it is not that much more powerful than the relic, but that is mostly because the druid relic ended up being more powerful than originally intended.

I still want the legendary to use polymorph potions without losing them (I have a good collection of them) and to free up my shirt slot -- just in case a nice shirt comes around in the next few years...


I am not looking at trading off the legendary, as it does have some upsides. I had +30 polymorph damage at Origins so our builds are likely very similar and I think our experience was likely similar. I am also not looking to do as much damage as a pure damage class. With all of that said though the design space for these tokens needs to be closer in scope. Currently the Barbarian legendary along with a x3 crit weapon is going to allow them to do as much damage in one round as a melee Druid is going to do in the entire combat. That seems a bit crazy.
The topic has been locked.

2020 Transmuted Token Images 1 year 2 months ago #100

Wade Schwendemann wrote:

OrionW wrote:

jpotter wrote: The druid legendary is also awesome. Beertram was just wrecking things with it. Definitely heard a DM or two give some "wow"s after calculating his damage on certain things after factoring in the extra damage from shape-shifting appropriately. (EDIT: Beertram informed me he was only using the RELIC - jeeeeeez)


First there is very little difference in damage between the Druid legendary and relic. Second you keep bringing up this Druid build as justification for OP legendaries and I would ask that you stop. As someone that has transmuted the Druid legendary and used it at Orgins, I can tell you that your posts are wrong. Either have Beertram post his own thoughts, or at least show us some damage calculations to support your perceived balance between items.


Asking someone to stop posting seems counter to the very idea of this forum, and I would ask that you stop.

Asking for data is reasonable, though doing so after your first request is not likely to be met with the response you are looking for.


I worded that poorly. I very much want everyone to keep posting. My intention was to ask that if the Druid item is being positively compared to these proposed items that it be done so with data.

@jpotter - sorry about that. My post was more salty then I intended.
Last edit: by OrionW.
The topic has been locked.

2020 Transmuted Token Images 1 year 2 months ago #101

OrionW wrote:

Beertram wrote:

OrionW wrote:

jpotter wrote: The druid legendary is also awesome. Beertram was just wrecking things with it. Definitely heard a DM or two give some "wow"s after calculating his damage on certain things after factoring in the extra damage from shape-shifting appropriately. (EDIT: Beertram informed me he was only using the RELIC - jeeeeeez)


First there is very little difference in damage between the Druid legendary and relic. Second you keep bringing up this Druid build as justification for OP legendaries and I would ask that you stop. As someone that has transmuted the Druid legendary and used it at Orgins, I can tell you that your posts are wrong. Either have Beertram post his own thoughts, or at least show us some damage calculations to support your perceived balance between items.


Are you looking to trade that lousy under-powered legendary??? :)

My build with the relic has me at +17 to hit, +31 damage while polymorphed. And with Iktomi's it would only go up to +18/+32 or +17/+33 depending on which current shirt I swap in. So am I the greatest damage dealer out there? No, but I am also +16 on heal spells and +18 on damage spells. So the druid can fill a lot of roles. I like the druid relic & legendary because I like the flavor of it. It is fun to play. I don't care if another class is doing more melee damage. Some should do more than the druid.

Maybe Iktomi's should have added some focus, and yes, it is not that much more powerful than the relic, but that is mostly because the druid relic ended up being more powerful than originally intended.

I still want the legendary to use polymorph potions without losing them (I have a good collection of them) and to free up my shirt slot -- just in case a nice shirt comes around in the next few years...


I am not looking at trading off the legendary, as it does have some upsides. I had +30 polymorph damage at Origins so our builds are likely very similar and I think our experience was likely similar. I am also not looking to do as much damage as a pure damage class. With all of that said though the design space for these tokens needs to be closer in scope. Currently the Barbarian legendary along with a x3 crit weapon is going to allow them to do as much damage in one round as a melee Druid is going to do in the entire combat. That seems a bit crazy.


Agreed, there needs to be some balance. We have some great analysts in the group, it would be great if we could get a comparison of the max class damage incorporating these tokens and the previous Class Legendary tokens. I know that's not the entire comparison because some do lots of non-Damage stuff also, but it would help. It's too late to balance the tokens after the designs are finalized and sent to the printer.
The topic has been locked.

2020 Transmuted Token Images 1 year 2 months ago #102

  • James
  • James's Avatar
  • Away
  • 7th Level
  • Supporter
  • Never let me play druid.
  • Posts: 1537

Wayne Rhodes wrote:

Mike Steele wrote: Since every class is getting a Class Specific Relic and Legendary, it seems important (to me at least) that they all be pretty balanced in order of power. It seems to me that the power of this year's Legendary tokens far exceeds last year's. To be honest, this year's Relics seem to me to be more powerful than last year's Legendaries. For instance, last year none of the Class Legendary tokens granted bonus combat or spell damage, while this year they all do, except for the Paladin token which more than makes up for it in other areas (as Kirk pointed out all of it's bonuses are essentially slotless since it can be swapped out with another weapon).

Does anyone else agree the Legendaries should all be balanced, even though they are spread out over a number of years? If so - does it seem to anyone else that this year's Legendaries are FAR more powerful than last years? It seems to me that the bonus damage could be stripped completely and they'd still be on par with last year.


I would say last years lute was stronger than many of this years legendary’s. It was SLOTLESS took the Bard song bonus to +4, +4, reroll bad saves, and Bard can do a normal action and free action as though Bard song wasn’t being preformed. It’s strong enough that I considered making one just to lone out to anyone playing with me that wanted to play Bard. I think the Lute is the Most OP legendary so far.


A rosp bard with the right stuff gives 6/6 per combat and the cleric can add another 3 to hit, I don't know if anyone misses with a plus 9 you basically hit most things on a 3
The topic has been locked.

2020 Transmuted Token Images 1 year 2 months ago #103

Mike Steele wrote:

OrionW wrote:

Beertram wrote:

OrionW wrote:

jpotter wrote: The druid legendary is also awesome. Beertram was just wrecking things with it. Definitely heard a DM or two give some "wow"s after calculating his damage on certain things after factoring in the extra damage from shape-shifting appropriately. (EDIT: Beertram informed me he was only using the RELIC - jeeeeeez)


First there is very little difference in damage between the Druid legendary and relic. Second you keep bringing up this Druid build as justification for OP legendaries and I would ask that you stop. As someone that has transmuted the Druid legendary and used it at Orgins, I can tell you that your posts are wrong. Either have Beertram post his own thoughts, or at least show us some damage calculations to support your perceived balance between items.


Are you looking to trade that lousy under-powered legendary??? :)

My build with the relic has me at +17 to hit, +31 damage while polymorphed. And with Iktomi's it would only go up to +18/+32 or +17/+33 depending on which current shirt I swap in. So am I the greatest damage dealer out there? No, but I am also +16 on heal spells and +18 on damage spells. So the druid can fill a lot of roles. I like the druid relic & legendary because I like the flavor of it. It is fun to play. I don't care if another class is doing more melee damage. Some should do more than the druid.

Maybe Iktomi's should have added some focus, and yes, it is not that much more powerful than the relic, but that is mostly because the druid relic ended up being more powerful than originally intended.

I still want the legendary to use polymorph potions without losing them (I have a good collection of them) and to free up my shirt slot -- just in case a nice shirt comes around in the next few years...


I am not looking at trading off the legendary, as it does have some upsides. I had +30 polymorph damage at Origins so our builds are likely very similar and I think our experience was likely similar. I am also not looking to do as much damage as a pure damage class. With all of that said though the design space for these tokens needs to be closer in scope. Currently the Barbarian legendary along with a x3 crit weapon is going to allow them to do as much damage in one round as a melee Druid is going to do in the entire combat. That seems a bit crazy.


Agreed, there needs to be some balance. We have some great analysts in the group, it would be great if we could get a comparison of the max class damage incorporating these tokens and the previous Class Legendary tokens. I know that's not the entire comparison because some do lots of non-Damage stuff also, but it would help. It's too late to balance the tokens after the designs are finalized and sent to the printer.


I think doing max damage comparisons when there are lots of things that dont directly affect it, and allow for other things like versatility and build options, is fraught with peril.

If we do this, I suspect, as you all do, that Druids will be behind Barbarian, Monk, Ranger (though the ranger doesnt need the legendary for that). The Druid might be ahead of Paladin, who isnt getting any additional strength or damage from their legendary, and may or may not be ahead of rogue, depending.

My point is, if we do this and see that Druid is 4th of 7, does that mean we need to nerf the legendaries back to the point where druid is 3rd? 2nd?

I dont get why this analysis is necessary.

I do get that we need to make sure that one class doesnt completely make other classes irrelevant.

Anyhow, I'm not a stats guy, so I wont be doing the analysis. My sense is

Monk
Barbarian
Ranger
Rogue
Druid
Paladin
Bard

I'm ok with that, and maybe Rogue and Ranger are swapped, depending on on how we count sneak attack
First ever death in True Horde
"Well, with you guarding 2 players, that means you take 90. Are you dead?"
-Incognito

My token shop/trade thread: Wade's Wide World of Wonder 

My Current Paladin Build 
The topic has been locked.

2020 Transmuted Token Images 1 year 2 months ago #104

Mike Steele wrote:

OrionW wrote:

Beertram wrote:

OrionW wrote:

jpotter wrote: The druid legendary is also awesome. Beertram was just wrecking things with it. Definitely heard a DM or two give some "wow"s after calculating his damage on certain things after factoring in the extra damage from shape-shifting appropriately. (EDIT: Beertram informed me he was only using the RELIC - jeeeeeez)


First there is very little difference in damage between the Druid legendary and relic. Second you keep bringing up this Druid build as justification for OP legendaries and I would ask that you stop. As someone that has transmuted the Druid legendary and used it at Orgins, I can tell you that your posts are wrong. Either have Beertram post his own thoughts, or at least show us some damage calculations to support your perceived balance between items.


Are you looking to trade that lousy under-powered legendary??? :)

My build with the relic has me at +17 to hit, +31 damage while polymorphed. And with Iktomi's it would only go up to +18/+32 or +17/+33 depending on which current shirt I swap in. So am I the greatest damage dealer out there? No, but I am also +16 on heal spells and +18 on damage spells. So the druid can fill a lot of roles. I like the druid relic & legendary because I like the flavor of it. It is fun to play. I don't care if another class is doing more melee damage. Some should do more than the druid.

Maybe Iktomi's should have added some focus, and yes, it is not that much more powerful than the relic, but that is mostly because the druid relic ended up being more powerful than originally intended.

I still want the legendary to use polymorph potions without losing them (I have a good collection of them) and to free up my shirt slot -- just in case a nice shirt comes around in the next few years...


I am not looking at trading off the legendary, as it does have some upsides. I had +30 polymorph damage at Origins so our builds are likely very similar and I think our experience was likely similar. I am also not looking to do as much damage as a pure damage class. With all of that said though the design space for these tokens needs to be closer in scope. Currently the Barbarian legendary along with a x3 crit weapon is going to allow them to do as much damage in one round as a melee Druid is going to do in the entire combat. That seems a bit crazy.


Agreed, there needs to be some balance. We have some great analysts in the group, it would be great if we could get a comparison of the max class damage incorporating these tokens and the previous Class Legendary tokens. I know that's not the entire comparison because some do lots of non-Damage stuff also, but it would help. It's too late to balance the tokens after the designs are finalized and sent to the printer.


Is it too late to balance after the printers though? Druid and Bard have "more info: tokendb.com" Why not put the stat boosting basics on the Legendary tokens, and leave extra actions like Fury and Animal Friend as things that only get covered in TokenDB?

To clarify, I'm not suggesting that we don't do our best to try to balance up front, but some of these things might be difficult to judge the balance of until we see them in action.
The topic has been locked.

2020 Transmuted Token Images 1 year 2 months ago #105

Is it too late to make Monk a slot less
Tattoo or something else,
That way it can be less powerful.
When a Falcon's Strike breaks the body
of its prey, it is because of timing.
Sun Tzu
Art of War 500 B.C.

D&D, been playing 35 years
GenCon, been going 23 years Straight
True Dungeon, been playing 16 years Straight and all 4 events last year.
The topic has been locked.

2020 Transmuted Token Images 1 year 2 months ago #106

Wade Schwendemann wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

OrionW wrote:

Beertram wrote:

OrionW wrote:

jpotter wrote: The druid legendary is also awesome. Beertram was just wrecking things with it. Definitely heard a DM or two give some "wow"s after calculating his damage on certain things after factoring in the extra damage from shape-shifting appropriately. (EDIT: Beertram informed me he was only using the RELIC - jeeeeeez)


First there is very little difference in damage between the Druid legendary and relic. Second you keep bringing up this Druid build as justification for OP legendaries and I would ask that you stop. As someone that has transmuted the Druid legendary and used it at Orgins, I can tell you that your posts are wrong. Either have Beertram post his own thoughts, or at least show us some damage calculations to support your perceived balance between items.


Are you looking to trade that lousy under-powered legendary??? :)

My build with the relic has me at +17 to hit, +31 damage while polymorphed. And with Iktomi's it would only go up to +18/+32 or +17/+33 depending on which current shirt I swap in. So am I the greatest damage dealer out there? No, but I am also +16 on heal spells and +18 on damage spells. So the druid can fill a lot of roles. I like the druid relic & legendary because I like the flavor of it. It is fun to play. I don't care if another class is doing more melee damage. Some should do more than the druid.

Maybe Iktomi's should have added some focus, and yes, it is not that much more powerful than the relic, but that is mostly because the druid relic ended up being more powerful than originally intended.

I still want the legendary to use polymorph potions without losing them (I have a good collection of them) and to free up my shirt slot -- just in case a nice shirt comes around in the next few years...


I am not looking at trading off the legendary, as it does have some upsides. I had +30 polymorph damage at Origins so our builds are likely very similar and I think our experience was likely similar. I am also not looking to do as much damage as a pure damage class. With all of that said though the design space for these tokens needs to be closer in scope. Currently the Barbarian legendary along with a x3 crit weapon is going to allow them to do as much damage in one round as a melee Druid is going to do in the entire combat. That seems a bit crazy.


Agreed, there needs to be some balance. We have some great analysts in the group, it would be great if we could get a comparison of the max class damage incorporating these tokens and the previous Class Legendary tokens. I know that's not the entire comparison because some do lots of non-Damage stuff also, but it would help. It's too late to balance the tokens after the designs are finalized and sent to the printer.


I think doing max damage comparisons when there are lots of things that dont directly affect it, and allow for other things like versatility and build options, is fraught with peril.

If we do this, I suspect, as you all do, that Druids will be behind Barbarian, Monk, Ranger (though the ranger doesnt need the legendary for that). The Druid might be ahead of Paladin, who isnt getting any additional strength or damage from their legendary, and may or may not be ahead of rogue, depending.

My point is, if we do this and see that Druid is 4th of 7, does that mean we need to nerf the legendaries back to the point where druid is 3rd? 2nd?

I dont get why this analysis is necessary.

I do get that we need to make sure that one class doesnt completely make other classes irrelevant.

Anyhow, I'm not a stats guy, so I wont be doing the analysis. My sense is

Monk
Barbarian
Ranger
Rogue
Druid
Paladin
Bard

I'm ok with that, and maybe Rogue and Ranger are swapped, depending on on how we count sneak attack


I think it might show that we shouldn't give big damage bonuses to classes that are already near or at the top, when classes that are near the middle or bottom arent getting big damage enhancements with their Legendaries. I think the class Legendaries are a failure if they just increase the gap of damage dealing between classes.
The topic has been locked.

2020 Transmuted Token Images 1 year 2 months ago #107

James J Krot wrote:

Wayne Rhodes wrote:

Mike Steele wrote: Since every class is getting a Class Specific Relic and Legendary, it seems important (to me at least) that they all be pretty balanced in order of power. It seems to me that the power of this year's Legendary tokens far exceeds last year's. To be honest, this year's Relics seem to me to be more powerful than last year's Legendaries. For instance, last year none of the Class Legendary tokens granted bonus combat or spell damage, while this year they all do, except for the Paladin token which more than makes up for it in other areas (as Kirk pointed out all of it's bonuses are essentially slotless since it can be swapped out with another weapon).

Does anyone else agree the Legendaries should all be balanced, even though they are spread out over a number of years? If so - does it seem to anyone else that this year's Legendaries are FAR more powerful than last years? It seems to me that the bonus damage could be stripped completely and they'd still be on par with last year.


I would say last years lute was stronger than many of this years legendary’s. It was SLOTLESS took the Bard song bonus to +4, +4, reroll bad saves, and Bard can do a normal action and free action as though Bard song wasn’t being preformed. It’s strong enough that I considered making one just to lone out to anyone playing with me that wanted to play Bard. I think the Lute is the Most OP legendary so far.


A rosp bard with the right stuff gives 6/6 per combat and the cleric can add another 3 to hit, I don't know if anyone misses with a plus 9 you basically hit most things on a 3


I'm curious, what right stuff let's the Bard give +6 / +6? The base is +2 /+2, and the Legendary adds +2 / +2. If it requires RoSP, that's a pretty small subset of bard runs.
Last edit: by Mike Steele.
The topic has been locked.

2020 Transmuted Token Images 1 year 2 months ago #108

I've seen multiple posts suggesting that monk relic/legendary is too strong right now, which I agree that it's on the strong side. But I don't want to see it get over nerfed.

If the monk relic and legendary are to be toned down might I suggest:

Relic:
  • +3 sacred damage to FoB
  • +1 healing on hit
  • Stun on 19-20
  • FoB at range

Legendary
  • +5 sacred damage to FoB
  • +2 healing on hit
  • Stun on 17-20
  • FoB at range
  • Grants PT-7 psychic power

Hp on hit is my favorite defensive perk, but 2/4 DEX, AC, or CON could also be subbed in.

I also like the +1 psychic power more, but would take either.
Playing True Dungeon since 2012.
Last edit: by Philip Goodman.
The topic has been locked.
Time to create page: 0.201 seconds