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TOPIC: 2020 Transmuted Token Images

2020 Transmuted Token Images 1 year 2 months ago #85

One of my recent runs I focused on bumping tokens because I was only doing damage in the 30s. Another run cast a spell for 80 and did far less total damage than anyone who had 2 rounds of attacks.

Monsters need to start gaining damage halving to keep up. Damage halving smooths the differences in a way that fixed reduction or more hp don't.
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2020 Transmuted Token Images 1 year 2 months ago #86

OrionW wrote:

jpotter wrote: The druid legendary is also awesome. Beertram was just wrecking things with it. Definitely heard a DM or two give some "wow"s after calculating his damage on certain things after factoring in the extra damage from shape-shifting appropriately. (EDIT: Beertram informed me he was only using the RELIC - jeeeeeez)


First there is very little difference in damage between the Druid legendary and relic. Second you keep bringing up this Druid build as justification for OP legendaries and I would ask that you stop. As someone that has transmuted the Druid legendary and used it at Orgins, I can tell you that your posts are wrong. Either have Beertram post his own thoughts, or at least show us some damage calculations to support your perceived balance between items.


Are you looking to trade that lousy under-powered legendary??? :)

My build with the relic has me at +17 to hit, +31 damage while polymorphed. And with Iktomi's it would only go up to +18/+32 or +17/+33 depending on which current shirt I swap in. So am I the greatest damage dealer out there? No, but I am also +16 on heal spells and +18 on damage spells. So the druid can fill a lot of roles. I like the druid relic & legendary because I like the flavor of it. It is fun to play. I don't care if another class is doing more melee damage. Some should do more than the druid.

Maybe Iktomi's should have added some focus, and yes, it is not that much more powerful than the relic, but that is mostly because the druid relic ended up being more powerful than originally intended.

I still want the legendary to use polymorph potions without losing them (I have a good collection of them) and to free up my shirt slot -- just in case a nice shirt comes around in the next few years...
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2020 Transmuted Token Images 1 year 2 months ago #87

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After a little sleep and reflection, I tend to agree that the Monk item is brilliant but overpowered. Personally I would dial it back to:

Necklace of the Elder Drake
+4 Sacred dmg FoB
Stun Fist on 19-20
May hit Ranged target with Flurry of Blows

Benrow's Spirit Drake Necklace
+6 Sacred dmg FoB
Stun Fist on 17-20
May hit Ranged target w/ FoB
Grants +2 Psychic Tier

Keep it basically the same, just tone the damage down, the stun range down, and only grant 2 tiers of Psychic Power instead of going straight to tier 7 This would still be amazing and must have in my opinion, just not as overpowered and doesn't fully replace the need for Teeth.

And this doesn't imbue Psychic power, right? Just increases the tier available?

And with Psychic power, I think it is even more important to switch 'Elder' and 'Spirit' in the name.
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Last edit: by Xavon.
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2020 Transmuted Token Images 1 year 2 months ago #88

Mike Steele wrote:

Philip Goodman wrote: If the fury mechanic stays as-is and doesn't switch to +50 damage:

Would it trigger the stun on the +2 Stunning Lt. Crossbow?

I would assume some barbs would be looking to acquire Bracers of Guided Strike for crit immune enemies right?


It seems a bit unreal to me that we're even talking about +50 damage as one of the abilities of an item.

I mostly just want to know if the barbarians are getting access to a more reliable stun than the monks in this set.
Playing True Dungeon since 2012.
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2020 Transmuted Token Images 1 year 2 months ago #89

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Ian Lee wrote: One of my recent runs I focused on bumping tokens because I was only doing damage in the 30s. Another run cast a spell for 80 and did far less total damage than anyone who had 2 rounds of attacks.

Monsters need to start gaining damage halving to keep up. Damage halving smooths the differences in a way that fixed reduction or more hp don't.


Good point. Like resistance to [insert type] is half of total damage of that type taken.
Though it may be harder for combat dm to track with all they have going in.
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2020 Transmuted Token Images 1 year 2 months ago #90

Kakitahan wrote:

Ian Lee wrote: One of my recent runs I focused on bumping tokens because I was only doing damage in the 30s. Another run cast a spell for 80 and did far less total damage than anyone who had 2 rounds of attacks.

Monsters need to start gaining damage halving to keep up. Damage halving smooths the differences in a way that fixed reduction or more hp don't.


Good point. Like resistance to [insert type] is half of total damage of that type taken.
Though it may be harder for combat dm to track with all they have going in.


In a few years we'd be at Damage Decimating, reducing damage by 90%. ;)
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2020 Transmuted Token Images 1 year 2 months ago #91

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Xavon wrote: After a little sleep and reflection, I tend to agree that the Monk item is brilliant but overpowered. Personally I would dial it back to:

Necklace of the Elder Drake
+4 Sacred dmg FoB
Stun Fist on 19-20
May hit Ranged target with Flurry of Blows

Benrow's Spirit Drake Necklace
+6 Sacred dmg FoB
Stun Fist on 17-20
May hit Ranged target w/ FoB
Grants +2 Psychic Tier

Keep it basically the same, just tone the damage down, the stun range down, and only grant 2 tiers of Psychic Power instead of going straight to tier 7 This would still be amazing and must have in my opinion, just not as overpowered and doesn't fully replace the need for Teeth.

And this doesn't imbue Psychic power, right? Just increases the tier available?

And with Psychic power, I think it is even more important to switch 'Elder' and 'Spirit' in the name.


I’d vote if necklace keeps psychic then provide as current, granting 7th level psychic ability. Not every new player will have access to all the teeth, so a newer monk making the legendary gets a one out from having to chase previous hard to attain tokens.
Last edit: by Kakitahan .
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2020 Transmuted Token Images 1 year 2 months ago #92

OrionW wrote:

jpotter wrote: The druid legendary is also awesome. Beertram was just wrecking things with it. Definitely heard a DM or two give some "wow"s after calculating his damage on certain things after factoring in the extra damage from shape-shifting appropriately. (EDIT: Beertram informed me he was only using the RELIC - jeeeeeez)


First there is very little difference in damage between the Druid legendary and relic. Second you keep bringing up this Druid build as justification for OP legendaries and I would ask that you stop. As someone that has transmuted the Druid legendary and used it at Orgins, I can tell you that your posts are wrong. Either have Beertram post his own thoughts, or at least show us some damage calculations to support your perceived balance between items.


Asking someone to stop posting seems counter to the very idea of this forum, and I would ask that you stop.

Asking for data is reasonable, though doing so after your first request is not likely to be met with the response you are looking for.
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2020 Transmuted Token Images 1 year 2 months ago #93

Endgame wrote:

Wayne Rhodes wrote:

jpotter wrote:

Mike Steele wrote: Does anyone else agree the Legendaries should all be balanced, even though they are spread out over a number of years? If so - does it seem to anyone else that this year's Legendaries are FAR more powerful than last years? It seems to me that the bonus damage could be stripped completely and they'd still be on par with last year.



Having seen the bard, druid, and rogue legendaries in action at Origins, it does not seem that way to me at all.

The bard legendary is probably by far the most powerful of them all. The bonus it provides to the whole party is just insane.

The rogue legendary is pretty bonkers. Ask Fred about it.

The druid legendary is also awesome. Beertram was just wrecking things with it. Definitely heard a DM or two give some "wow"s after calculating his damage on certain things after factoring in the extra damage from shape-shifting appropriately. (EDIT: Beertram informed me he was only using the RELIC - jeeeeeez)


The paladin is a guarding/protecting class. Having the Holy Avenger add to that seems appropriate. I do not agree with the "take away saves and add retribution damage" crowd. Taking away the saves from the Holy Avenger again basically negates the one thing that ALWAYS works in a dungeon. If you've ever played paladin you've gone an entire dungeon sometimes without your double guard working a single time. Guard is not this brick wall of stop everything that many seem to think it is. It doesn't work against ranged, spell, or just DM deciding to target someone else.

The barbarian is a raging/damage class. Having them add damage seems appropriate. Adding a new neat ability also seems appropriate.

The monk is a damage/bag o tricks class. Having it add damage and some tricks seems appropriate.



Monk difference just on stat points assuming Medallion of Valhalla:
With Valhalla: +2hit/damage (4 total stat points) and 10hps and 2 fort save
With new neck: +8 damage (8 total stat points)

Barb difference just on stat points assuming Medallion of Valhalla:
With Valhalla: +2hit/damage (4 total stat points) and 10 hps and 2 fort save
with new neck: +16 damage


For going from UR to class legendary, these don't seem like humongous gaps to me.


I think this version of the Holy avenger should be the final one. Leave the saves in place, they are good but not crazy, leave the guard (it’s good but can’t be used in many times but is key to this sword), instakill and sacrifice may never happen for a given player since the come into effect so rarely should not be a point of balancing. Lay on hands bonus is great and plays into what the TD paladin is (still would like it to be +10 to first lay on hands to make tracking easier)
These holy avengers we’ll like the right power level. I think they are fine. We could apply the same slotless argument to the wizard and Druid weapon giving them a slotless +5 legendary ring of focus.

If insta kill and sacrifice don't come up, let's remove them from the legendary. It frees up space on the token. Sacrifice tweaked could be put on a new token in the future.

Honestly, the save buff is so good, I would vote for removing the lay on hands buff and putting it on a token next year. That gives more room on a token to explain how the lay on hands buff works.

So your saying the holy avenger should be just guard and a mid tear +5 weapon.
That’s not far off the original version only worse. It would be by fare the weakest class UR. The wizard +5 weapon is better than that and it’s not there class item.
I think this version is just fine, let’s not strip it to being junk.
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2020 Transmuted Token Images 1 year 2 months ago #94

Wayne Rhodes wrote:

Endgame wrote:

Wayne Rhodes wrote:

jpotter wrote:

Mike Steele wrote: Does anyone else agree the Legendaries should all be balanced, even though they are spread out over a number of years? If so - does it seem to anyone else that this year's Legendaries are FAR more powerful than last years? It seems to me that the bonus damage could be stripped completely and they'd still be on par with last year.



Having seen the bard, druid, and rogue legendaries in action at Origins, it does not seem that way to me at all.

The bard legendary is probably by far the most powerful of them all. The bonus it provides to the whole party is just insane.

The rogue legendary is pretty bonkers. Ask Fred about it.

The druid legendary is also awesome. Beertram was just wrecking things with it. Definitely heard a DM or two give some "wow"s after calculating his damage on certain things after factoring in the extra damage from shape-shifting appropriately. (EDIT: Beertram informed me he was only using the RELIC - jeeeeeez)


The paladin is a guarding/protecting class. Having the Holy Avenger add to that seems appropriate. I do not agree with the "take away saves and add retribution damage" crowd. Taking away the saves from the Holy Avenger again basically negates the one thing that ALWAYS works in a dungeon. If you've ever played paladin you've gone an entire dungeon sometimes without your double guard working a single time. Guard is not this brick wall of stop everything that many seem to think it is. It doesn't work against ranged, spell, or just DM deciding to target someone else.

The barbarian is a raging/damage class. Having them add damage seems appropriate. Adding a new neat ability also seems appropriate.

The monk is a damage/bag o tricks class. Having it add damage and some tricks seems appropriate.



Monk difference just on stat points assuming Medallion of Valhalla:
With Valhalla: +2hit/damage (4 total stat points) and 10hps and 2 fort save
With new neck: +8 damage (8 total stat points)

Barb difference just on stat points assuming Medallion of Valhalla:
With Valhalla: +2hit/damage (4 total stat points) and 10 hps and 2 fort save
with new neck: +16 damage


For going from UR to class legendary, these don't seem like humongous gaps to me.


I think this version of the Holy avenger should be the final one. Leave the saves in place, they are good but not crazy, leave the guard (it’s good but can’t be used in many times but is key to this sword), instakill and sacrifice may never happen for a given player since the come into effect so rarely should not be a point of balancing. Lay on hands bonus is great and plays into what the TD paladin is (still would like it to be +10 to first lay on hands to make tracking easier)
These holy avengers we’ll like the right power level. I think they are fine. We could apply the same slotless argument to the wizard and Druid weapon giving them a slotless +5 legendary ring of focus.

If insta kill and sacrifice don't come up, let's remove them from the legendary. It frees up space on the token. Sacrifice tweaked could be put on a new token in the future.

Honestly, the save buff is so good, I would vote for removing the lay on hands buff and putting it on a token next year. That gives more room on a token to explain how the lay on hands buff works.

So your saying the holy avenger should be just guard and a mid tear +5 weapon.
That’s not far off the original version only worse. It would be by fare the weakest class UR. The wizard +5 weapon is better than that and it’s not there class item.
I think this version is just fine, let’s not strip it to being junk.


My suggestion has:
Guard buff
Save buff
Nearly as much damage as the highest damage 1h weapon, which has no other power.

That makes it the best 1h weapon in the game.

I thought you said that insta kill and sacrifice dont come up anyway, so what does it matter if they are removed?
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2020 Transmuted Token Images 1 year 2 months ago #95

Endgame wrote:

Wayne Rhodes wrote:

Endgame wrote:

Wayne Rhodes wrote:

jpotter wrote:

Mike Steele wrote: Does anyone else agree the Legendaries should all be balanced, even though they are spread out over a number of years? If so - does it seem to anyone else that this year's Legendaries are FAR more powerful than last years? It seems to me that the bonus damage could be stripped completely and they'd still be on par with last year.



Having seen the bard, druid, and rogue legendaries in action at Origins, it does not seem that way to me at all.

The bard legendary is probably by far the most powerful of them all. The bonus it provides to the whole party is just insane.

The rogue legendary is pretty bonkers. Ask Fred about it.

The druid legendary is also awesome. Beertram was just wrecking things with it. Definitely heard a DM or two give some "wow"s after calculating his damage on certain things after factoring in the extra damage from shape-shifting appropriately. (EDIT: Beertram informed me he was only using the RELIC - jeeeeeez)


The paladin is a guarding/protecting class. Having the Holy Avenger add to that seems appropriate. I do not agree with the "take away saves and add retribution damage" crowd. Taking away the saves from the Holy Avenger again basically negates the one thing that ALWAYS works in a dungeon. If you've ever played paladin you've gone an entire dungeon sometimes without your double guard working a single time. Guard is not this brick wall of stop everything that many seem to think it is. It doesn't work against ranged, spell, or just DM deciding to target someone else.

The barbarian is a raging/damage class. Having them add damage seems appropriate. Adding a new neat ability also seems appropriate.

The monk is a damage/bag o tricks class. Having it add damage and some tricks seems appropriate.



Monk difference just on stat points assuming Medallion of Valhalla:
With Valhalla: +2hit/damage (4 total stat points) and 10hps and 2 fort save
With new neck: +8 damage (8 total stat points)

Barb difference just on stat points assuming Medallion of Valhalla:
With Valhalla: +2hit/damage (4 total stat points) and 10 hps and 2 fort save
with new neck: +16 damage


For going from UR to class legendary, these don't seem like humongous gaps to me.


I think this version of the Holy avenger should be the final one. Leave the saves in place, they are good but not crazy, leave the guard (it’s good but can’t be used in many times but is key to this sword), instakill and sacrifice may never happen for a given player since the come into effect so rarely should not be a point of balancing. Lay on hands bonus is great and plays into what the TD paladin is (still would like it to be +10 to first lay on hands to make tracking easier)
These holy avengers we’ll like the right power level. I think they are fine. We could apply the same slotless argument to the wizard and Druid weapon giving them a slotless +5 legendary ring of focus.

If insta kill and sacrifice don't come up, let's remove them from the legendary. It frees up space on the token. Sacrifice tweaked could be put on a new token in the future.

Honestly, the save buff is so good, I would vote for removing the lay on hands buff and putting it on a token next year. That gives more room on a token to explain how the lay on hands buff works.

So your saying the holy avenger should be just guard and a mid tear +5 weapon.
That’s not far off the original version only worse. It would be by fare the weakest class UR. The wizard +5 weapon is better than that and it’s not there class item.
I think this version is just fine, let’s not strip it to being junk.


My suggestion has:
Guard buff
Save buff
Nearly as much damage as the highest damage 1h weapon, which has no other power.

That makes it the best 1h weapon in the game.

I thought you said that insta kill and sacrifice dont come up anyway, so what does it matter if they are removed?


Ok I misread the post. I thought you were saying strip the saves off to.

I would like to keep the lay on hands, it’s a great ability that will actually be used, the saves are a great add to the Holy avenger because in D&D it gave you some spell resistance and other bonus just for having it in your hand, the saves seem to represent that well.

Weapon as printed stats wise is fine but nothing special, keep the saves, keep the guard, keep the lay on hand bones
Ditch the instakill and the sacrifice.
That I could get behind that
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2020 Transmuted Token Images 1 year 2 months ago #96

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Kakitahan wrote:

Xavon wrote: After a little sleep and reflection, I tend to agree that the Monk item is brilliant but overpowered. Personally I would dial it back to:

Necklace of the Elder Drake
+4 Sacred dmg FoB
Stun Fist on 19-20
May hit Ranged target with Flurry of Blows

Benrow's Spirit Drake Necklace
+6 Sacred dmg FoB
Stun Fist on 17-20
May hit Ranged target w/ FoB
Grants +2 Psychic Tier

Keep it basically the same, just tone the damage down, the stun range down, and only grant 2 tiers of Psychic Power instead of going straight to tier 7 This would still be amazing and must have in my opinion, just not as overpowered and doesn't fully replace the need for Teeth.

And this doesn't imbue Psychic power, right? Just increases the tier available?

And with Psychic power, I think it is even more important to switch 'Elder' and 'Spirit' in the name.


I’d vote if necklace keeps psychic then provide as current, granting 7th level psychic ability. Not every new player will have access to all the teeth, so a newer monk making the legendary gets a one out from having to chase previous hard to attain tokens.


I agree about changing it back, but only because of the PT8 power, and I think this might cause confusion. I doubt many new players would have this and a Imbues Psychic power UR, and if they did they would probably be happy just to have a few Tiers of Psychic power to play with.
Applications programming is a race between software engineers, who strive to produce idiot-proof programs, and the Universe, which strives to produce bigger idiots.  <br /><br />So far, the Universe is winning.
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