Welcome, Guest
Username: Password: Remember me

TOPIC: 2020 Transmuted Token Images

2020 Transmuted Token Images 1 year 2 months ago #73

Wade Schwendemann wrote:

Mike Steele wrote: For instance, last year none of the Class Legendary tokens granted bonus combat or spell damage, while this year they all do, except for the Paladin token which more than makes up for it in other areas (as Kirk pointed out all of it's bonuses are essentially slotless since it can be swapped out with another weapon).


I agree that this year's seem better than last years (except ranger). The Paladin one simply is not slotless, and it doesnt differ at all from those who build in the app with a one handed weapon, then swap to a 2 handed weapon and have to tell the DM to drop their AC.

The discussion of whether or not guard should or shouldnt stack is nothing compared to the power level of monks and barbarians in my opinion.

Yes, I play a lot of Paladin, and I do want the guard to stack. That said, I dont think guard will even be necessary when we have monks stunning every room (or nearly every room) and barbarians getting a non-natural 20 every room. Monsters will get 1 round to attack at most with that, less if the monk and barbarian have a charm of quick strike and the party rolls well for initiative.
And the monk can do it at range!


Agreed 100%
Last edit: by PalaDan.
The topic has been locked.

2020 Transmuted Token Images 1 year 2 months ago #74

jpotter wrote:

Mike Steele wrote: Does anyone else agree the Legendaries should all be balanced, even though they are spread out over a number of years? If so - does it seem to anyone else that this year's Legendaries are FAR more powerful than last years? It seems to me that the bonus damage could be stripped completely and they'd still be on par with last year.



Having seen the bard, druid, and rogue legendaries in action at Origins, it does not seem that way to me at all.

The bard legendary is probably by far the most powerful of them all. The bonus it provides to the whole party is just insane.

The rogue legendary is pretty bonkers. Ask Fred about it.

The druid legendary is also awesome. Beertram was just wrecking things with it. Definitely heard a DM or two give some "wow"s after calculating his damage on certain things after factoring in the extra damage from shape-shifting appropriately. (EDIT: Beertram informed me he was only using the RELIC - jeeeeeez)


The paladin is a guarding/protecting class. Having the Holy Avenger add to that seems appropriate. I do not agree with the "take away saves and add retribution damage" crowd. Taking away the saves from the Holy Avenger again basically negates the one thing that ALWAYS works in a dungeon. If you've ever played paladin you've gone an entire dungeon sometimes without your double guard working a single time. Guard is not this brick wall of stop everything that many seem to think it is. It doesn't work against ranged, spell, or just DM deciding to target someone else.

The barbarian is a raging/damage class. Having them add damage seems appropriate. Adding a new neat ability also seems appropriate.

The monk is a damage/bag o tricks class. Having it add damage and some tricks seems appropriate.



Monk difference just on stat points assuming Medallion of Valhalla:
With Valhalla: +2hit/damage (4 total stat points) and 10hps and 2 fort save
With new neck: +8 damage (8 total stat points)

Barb difference just on stat points assuming Medallion of Valhalla:
With Valhalla: +2hit/damage (4 total stat points) and 10 hps and 2 fort save
with new neck: +16 damage


For going from UR to class legendary, these don't seem like humongous gaps to me.


I think this version of the Holy avenger should be the final one. Leave the saves in place, they are good but not crazy, leave the guard (it’s good but can’t be used in many times but is key to this sword), instakill and sacrifice may never happen for a given player since the come into effect so rarely should not be a point of balancing. Lay on hands bonus is great and plays into what the TD paladin is (still would like it to be +10 to first lay on hands to make tracking easier)
These holy avengers we’ll like the right power level. I think they are fine. We could apply the same slotless argument to the wizard and Druid weapon giving them a slotless +5 legendary ring of focus.
The topic has been locked.

2020 Transmuted Token Images 1 year 2 months ago #75

Wade Schwendemann wrote:

Mike Steele wrote: For instance, last year none of the Class Legendary tokens granted bonus combat or spell damage, while this year they all do, except for the Paladin token which more than makes up for it in other areas (as Kirk pointed out all of it's bonuses are essentially slotless since it can be swapped out with another weapon).


I agree that this year's seem better than last years (except ranger). The Paladin one simply is not slotless, and it doesnt differ at all from those who build in the app with a one handed weapon, then swap to a 2 handed weapon and have to tell the DM to drop their AC.

The discussion of whether or not guard should or shouldnt stack is nothing compared to the power level of monks and barbarians in my opinion.

Yes, I play a lot of Paladin, and I do want the guard to stack. That said, I dont think guard will even be necessary when we have monks stunning every room (or nearly every room) and barbarians getting a non-natural 20 every room. Monsters will get 1 round to attack at most with that, less if the monk and barbarian have a charm of quick strike and the party rolls well for initiative.
And the monk can do it at range!

I do think the idea is funny of killing a monster in the middle of its monologue with quickstrike.
But yes I agree
The topic has been locked.

2020 Transmuted Token Images 1 year 2 months ago #76

I would like to see the ranger ammo damage bonus removed and rolled into the sharpshooter bonus.

It would clean up some of the token text and remove the somewhat cumbersome situation of trying to explain to a DM why your +1 ammo is actually a +3 or +4 ammo and the additional damage calculation from that.

And it would remove one of the 3 consumable interactions which is 1 to 2 too many.
Playing True Dungeon since 2012.
Last edit: by Philip Goodman.
The topic has been locked.

2020 Transmuted Token Images 1 year 2 months ago #77

jpotter wrote: The druid legendary is also awesome. Beertram was just wrecking things with it. Definitely heard a DM or two give some "wow"s after calculating his damage on certain things after factoring in the extra damage from shape-shifting appropriately. (EDIT: Beertram informed me he was only using the RELIC - jeeeeeez)


First there is very little difference in damage between the Druid legendary and relic. Second you keep bringing up this Druid build as justification for OP legendaries and I would ask that you stop. As someone that has transmuted the Druid legendary and used it at Orgins, I can tell you that your posts are wrong. Either have Beertram post his own thoughts, or at least show us some damage calculations to support your perceived balance between items.
The topic has been locked.

2020 Transmuted Token Images 1 year 2 months ago #78

Wayne Rhodes wrote:

Mike Steele wrote: Since every class is getting a Class Specific Relic and Legendary, it seems important (to me at least) that they all be pretty balanced in order of power. It seems to me that the power of this year's Legendary tokens far exceeds last year's. To be honest, this year's Relics seem to me to be more powerful than last year's Legendaries. For instance, last year none of the Class Legendary tokens granted bonus combat or spell damage, while this year they all do, except for the Paladin token which more than makes up for it in other areas (as Kirk pointed out all of it's bonuses are essentially slotless since it can be swapped out with another weapon).

Does anyone else agree the Legendaries should all be balanced, even though they are spread out over a number of years? If so - does it seem to anyone else that this year's Legendaries are FAR more powerful than last years? It seems to me that the bonus damage could be stripped completely and they'd still be on par with last year.


I would say last years lute was stronger than many of this years legendary’s. It was SLOTLESS took the Bard song bonus to +4, +4, reroll bad saves, and Bard can do a normal action and free action as though Bard song wasn’t being preformed. It’s strong enough that I considered making one just to lone out to anyone playing with me that wanted to play Bard. I think the Lute is the Most OP legendary so far.


It had the exact same bonus damage as the UR Lutes (which are also slotless), it's only addition was +2 to hit for the group, and the UR Lutes also allow other actions. I do agree it was the most powerful Legendary last year, but I still think this year's are more powerful.
The topic has been locked.

2020 Transmuted Token Images 1 year 2 months ago #79

Wayne Rhodes wrote:

jpotter wrote:

Mike Steele wrote: Does anyone else agree the Legendaries should all be balanced, even though they are spread out over a number of years? If so - does it seem to anyone else that this year's Legendaries are FAR more powerful than last years? It seems to me that the bonus damage could be stripped completely and they'd still be on par with last year.



Having seen the bard, druid, and rogue legendaries in action at Origins, it does not seem that way to me at all.

The bard legendary is probably by far the most powerful of them all. The bonus it provides to the whole party is just insane.

The rogue legendary is pretty bonkers. Ask Fred about it.

The druid legendary is also awesome. Beertram was just wrecking things with it. Definitely heard a DM or two give some "wow"s after calculating his damage on certain things after factoring in the extra damage from shape-shifting appropriately. (EDIT: Beertram informed me he was only using the RELIC - jeeeeeez)


The paladin is a guarding/protecting class. Having the Holy Avenger add to that seems appropriate. I do not agree with the "take away saves and add retribution damage" crowd. Taking away the saves from the Holy Avenger again basically negates the one thing that ALWAYS works in a dungeon. If you've ever played paladin you've gone an entire dungeon sometimes without your double guard working a single time. Guard is not this brick wall of stop everything that many seem to think it is. It doesn't work against ranged, spell, or just DM deciding to target someone else.

The barbarian is a raging/damage class. Having them add damage seems appropriate. Adding a new neat ability also seems appropriate.

The monk is a damage/bag o tricks class. Having it add damage and some tricks seems appropriate.



Monk difference just on stat points assuming Medallion of Valhalla:
With Valhalla: +2hit/damage (4 total stat points) and 10hps and 2 fort save
With new neck: +8 damage (8 total stat points)

Barb difference just on stat points assuming Medallion of Valhalla:
With Valhalla: +2hit/damage (4 total stat points) and 10 hps and 2 fort save
with new neck: +16 damage


For going from UR to class legendary, these don't seem like humongous gaps to me.


I think this version of the Holy avenger should be the final one. Leave the saves in place, they are good but not crazy, leave the guard (it’s good but can’t be used in many times but is key to this sword), instakill and sacrifice may never happen for a given player since the come into effect so rarely should not be a point of balancing. Lay on hands bonus is great and plays into what the TD paladin is (still would like it to be +10 to first lay on hands to make tracking easier)
These holy avengers we’ll like the right power level. I think they are fine. We could apply the same slotless argument to the wizard and Druid weapon giving them a slotless +5 legendary ring of focus.

If insta kill and sacrifice don't come up, let's remove them from the legendary. It frees up space on the token. Sacrifice tweaked could be put on a new token in the future.

Honestly, the save buff is so good, I would vote for removing the lay on hands buff and putting it on a token next year. That gives more room on a token to explain how the lay on hands buff works.
The topic has been locked.

2020 Transmuted Token Images 1 year 2 months ago #80

If the fury mechanic stays as-is and doesn't switch to +50 damage:

Would it trigger the stun on the +2 Stunning Lt. Crossbow?

I would assume some barbs would be looking to acquire Bracers of Guided Strike for crit immune enemies right?
Playing True Dungeon since 2012.
The topic has been locked.

2020 Transmuted Token Images 1 year 2 months ago #81

PalaDan wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:
Does anyone else agree the Legendaries should all be balanced, even though they are spread out over a number of years? If so - does it seem to anyone else that this year's Legendaries are FAR more powerful than last years? It seems to me that the bonus damage could be stripped completely and they'd still be on par with last year.


Respectfully disagree. They're legendary. They cost hundreds (most over $1k) to make. They are the Welfor's and the Asher's and the Drue's and the Drake's for the new generations of players. They should be powerful.


To be clear, are you respectfully disagreeing that the 10 Class Legendary tokens should all be balanced in power? They all cost hundreds, they are all Legendary, why shouldn't they be approximately equal in power level?
The topic has been locked.

2020 Transmuted Token Images 1 year 2 months ago #82

OrionW wrote: First there is very little difference in damage between the Druid legendary and relic. Second you keep bringing up this Druid build as justification for OP legendaries and I would ask that you stop. As someone that has transmuted the Druid legendary and used it at Orgins, I can tell you that your posts are wrong. Either have Beertram post his own thoughts, or at least show us some damage calculations to support your perceived balance between items.


I am very sorry that you are underwhelmed by your legendary. I understand that it took a great deal to make, and that you are not happy with it. I am simply posting my own opinion, as you are doing. In the past I never posted in these threads because honestly I don't like the friction in them. This year however I feel that a positive reaction and voice is needed here to balance the negative reactions. This is the second time I believe I have brought up the experience I had with the druid relic/legendary at Origins, which was admittedly second-hand, but left quite an impression on me.

I do not mean for my argument to be a justification for OP legendaries. I mean for my argument to be an argument that the past legendaries are not bad. People having fun with them and enjoying them are my reasoning.
The topic has been locked.

2020 Transmuted Token Images 1 year 2 months ago #83

Philip Goodman wrote: If the fury mechanic stays as-is and doesn't switch to +50 damage:

Would it trigger the stun on the +2 Stunning Lt. Crossbow?

I would assume some barbs would be looking to acquire Bracers of Guided Strike for crit immune enemies right?


It seems a bit unreal to me that we're even talking about +50 damage as one of the abilities of an item.
The topic has been locked.

2020 Transmuted Token Images 1 year 2 months ago #84

Xavon wrote:

Kakitahan wrote:

Picc wrote:

Xavon wrote:

Fiddy wrote: Monk transmutes feel disconnected from the UR they come from. Suggest either replacing GoFF ability with returning shuriken effect from the UR, or replacing the UR ring with a reprint of GoFF and using that as the base for the transmutes.

Stunning on 16+ sounds like it will happen pretty frequently.

If Monks also equip a psychic imbuer and 7 Teeth, can they use PT-7 ability twice?


I think Returning is sort of a replacement/compliment for GoFF effect. And the stun might be more frequent, but it is still once per combat instead of repeatable.

That said, I wouldn't object if GoFF was part of an alternate recipe.


At this point why dont we just consider making a GoFF reprint into the base item. It would probably be helpful for the people who are never going to go after the relic (sorry I like the returning power too).


I can second reprint of flying fists (I own one) as the transmute path will make sense. Also i feel 16-20 may be a bit strong for stuns. 19 - 20 for relic then 18-20 for legendary progression? granted it is only one round of stun, but that is making the monster take a ton of damage.


The monster won't necessarily take any more damage, unless that -2 AC makes a big difference between whether most sliders hit or not. And there is still immunity to stun, we haven't gotten around that.

As for the Monk tokens themselves, why is the Legendary's range in quotes, but the Relic isn't. Also maybe the wording should be "Stun Fist on X-20" instead of "Stun Fist works X-20". That would be more clear.

All that said, I wouldn't be opposed to decreasing the range of both items by one (19-20 on relic, 17-20 on Legendary)


I think someone else mentioned it, but not in response to you. The issue with stunning happening too easily isn't the -2 AC, it is that the monster loses a turn.

At 16-20, it is highly likely to activate every combat where the monster isn't stun immune. Meaning that we'll likely see more stun immune monsters.

I'd tone it down to 19-20 on Relic and 18-20 on Legendary.
The topic has been locked.
Time to create page: 0.209 seconds