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TOPIC: 2020 Transmuted Token Images

2020 Transmuted Token Images 1 year 2 months ago #61

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Matt Goodman wrote:

jpotter wrote: I love the changes to the monk relic and legendary. They are things that will come into play every dungeon. The addition of the psychic power to the legendary is really neat, and gives the monks access to the higher tier powers a year or two before everyone else. Not game breaking, imho, but just a little extra.

I am totally happy with the toning down of the Paladin relic. It still has something that will be relevant every single dungeon. The new wording makes me think it stacks with amulet of guarding now. I really hope so.

Barb relic seems good. Legendary seems actually insane. Seems like most barbs will be doing something like 150plus damage each first round with it. Is that ok?


I would like to see +1 use of psychic and level 1-7. For the people who have collected the teeth, the current iteration will be moot in what, a year after this prints?

Also, the Barb could use the +2 Death Flail (3x damage on crit), so... yeah, 150 pts of damage is a conservative estimate, imo.


It needs to be cleared up how this works - it's not clear to me that it would.

+2 Death Flail's TDb entry says:

When a barbarian wielding this weapon’s first slide in combat is a natural 20 (not just a critical hit), the damage gets tripled instead of doubled.

I don't believe the effect of Fury gives you a natural 20, it gives you a 20. So you would get your regular 2x crit.

With Monks and Rangers sliding two pucks every combat, Barbarians having a 1/room ability to crit if they slide a called hit is probably just about right for Barbarians to get into the same damage tier as Monks and Rangers - less consistent, more explosive.

I am really happy where this ended up. I hope it sticks.


I would prefer the Legendary have this limited to 1/game and make it explicitly a natural 20. This keeps the player agency over when they get the one big attack, while reducing the total power of the token.
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2020 Transmuted Token Images 1 year 2 months ago #62

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Kirk Bauer wrote:
I still suspect allowing 3 guards is going to cause game design issues with nearly half of melee targets being the Paladin. It also allows more power creep because you can now have three total glass cannons per party. .


Expect more ranged and AOE attacks.
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2020 Transmuted Token Images 1 year 2 months ago #63

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Like the change to gem of last hope, wish the con ring for some fort as well but decent, otherwise I don't have an opinion on the legendary at this point that hasn't already been said.
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2020 Transmuted Token Images 1 year 2 months ago #64

Since every class is getting a Class Specific Relic and Legendary, it seems important (to me at least) that they all be pretty balanced in order of power. It seems to me that the power of this year's Legendary tokens far exceeds last year's. To be honest, this year's Relics seem to me to be more powerful than last year's Legendaries. For instance, last year none of the Class Legendary tokens granted bonus combat or spell damage, while this year they all do, except for the Paladin token which more than makes up for it in other areas (as Kirk pointed out all of it's bonuses are essentially slotless since it can be swapped out with another weapon).

Does anyone else agree the Legendaries should all be balanced, even though they are spread out over a number of years? If so - does it seem to anyone else that this year's Legendaries are FAR more powerful than last years? It seems to me that the bonus damage could be stripped completely and they'd still be on par with last year.
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2020 Transmuted Token Images 1 year 2 months ago #65

I think the Holy avenger is fine at this point and should not be changed any further. Saves have been nerfed, sacrifice has been nerfed.
Guard needs to be kept because that is the best thing about the sword (even if it doesn’t stack with AoG) this sword without guard just isn’t that good.
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2020 Transmuted Token Images 1 year 2 months ago #66

Kirk Bauer wrote: +5 Holy Avenger: better but there are still complications with having saves on a weapon that can be swapped in the dungeon. Retribution damage is more thematic. People also don't seem to care about the extra sacrifice. I suggest dropping both saves and sacrifice and adding retribution damage.

I still suspect allowing 3 guards is going to cause game design issues with nearly half of melee targets being the Paladin. It also allows more power creep because you can now have three total glass cannons per party.


One solution would be to record the +3 to saves separately in the "other notes" section of the party card. The player can remind the GM's to include the bonus when applicable, just like they do with guard. Also, let's take into consideration how often this would be happening - only a fraction of the player base plays a paladin, and only a fraction of those players will be carrying around a HA. This thing, like all legendaries, is not gonna be cheap.

Retribution damage doesn't actually seem thematic at all. If you have it, you'll want to use it, which means lowering your AC and getting hit more often. (Personally, I wouldn't take an option that lets me deal maybe 10 points of damage to a monster with 200+hp in exchange for losing 15-20 points off my 70-ish [at most] hp.) A 1/room or 1/game smite bonus damage would be more aligned with a weapon meant to mete out justice to the wicked.

I only have 5 modules with me at the moment, but going off of those, 9 of 17 fights had monsters that could overcome guard (either through spells, breath weapons or other AOE attacks, or ranged attacks). And again - a fraction of players are paladins, a fraction of those have the AoG, and an even smaller fraction will have both AoG and HA.
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2020 Transmuted Token Images 1 year 2 months ago #67

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Kirk Bauer wrote: Gem of Last Hope: I kind of liked the last version because it was different from the fallen star Mushroom even though I wasn't really clear how it worked. I would like to see this not take an action and perhaps heal to half hit points.

Lenses of the Owl: like others I'm still confused. My guess is +1 to hit and +1 to damage for ranged attacks including spells? If so pretty nice.

Now the Legendaries.

+5 Holy Avenger: better but there are still complications with having saves on a weapon that can be swapped in the dungeon. Retribution damage is more thematic. People also don't seem to care about the extra sacrifice. I suggest dropping both saves and sacrifice and adding retribution damage.

I still suspect allowing 3 guards is going to cause game design issues with nearly half of melee targets being the Paladin. It also allows more power creep because you can now have three total glass cannons per party.

Monk medallion: I tend to agree if we have Goff ability here perhaps reprint that UR as the base ability. Bigger problem is now this is the most overpowered legendary IMO. My first concern is the stunning fist range of 16-20. If this was a D20 die roll then we would only see a stun 1 of of 5 attacks. But we can control our to-hit roll in TD and the Monk gets two of them. This is almost guaranteeing the monster loses one attack every combat. That seems we will have to make the attacks even more brutal at high levels making a party without this ability left behind.

Then there is the damage. The most powerful damage dealing legendary should be the Barbarian. Arguably it's now the Monk,depending on sliding abilities.

If Barbarian had the legendary they get +16 damage to all combats assuming there are 3 combats per dungeon so they can rage on all of them.

Monk gets +16 damage to all combat no matter how many there are, assuming both pucks hit. And they can stun. And unlike Barbarian they also get +16 damage at ranged.

Compare to the Ranger legendary. With good slides, a Ranger gets +6 to ranged damage and no bonus to melee. A Monk gets up to +16 for both forms of combat.

I thought the Monk legendary was slightly overpowered at +5. Obviously at +8 it's much worse.


Retribution is not as great of an effect as saves. Like the holy avenger as-is. Regarding your slotless debate on people switching weapons, I’m sure people now are doing that with the redoubt set. Equip to off hand and on both melee and range, get ac bonus and set bonus then exchange to a stronger two handed ranged or melee weapon during combat so I feel it is a moot point to debate removing abilities/stats because people can switch a weapon out that has permanent sheet buffs. (Not stating everyone is doing this, but people min/maxing already have the ability to do so)

On monk legendary, stun range is too big needs and needs to be reduced. (19-20 for relic and 18-20 for legendary).

Barbarians have a chance to do +50 damage from fury (as of now) once per combat so damage gap isn’t as big, but +8 damage is a bit high. Probably reduce to by one or two damage points on each of the relic and legendary to complement all the abilities would help bring it down a notch. Jpotter brought up a good point and I crossed out my two.
Last edit: by Kakitahan . Reason: Grammar
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2020 Transmuted Token Images 1 year 2 months ago #68

Mike Steele wrote: Since every class is getting a Class Specific Relic and Legendary, it seems important (to me at least) that they all be pretty balanced in order of power. It seems to me that the power of this year's Legendary tokens far exceeds last year's. To be honest, this year's Relics seem to me to be more powerful than last year's Legendaries. For instance, last year none of the Class Legendary tokens granted bonus combat or spell damage, while this year they all do, except for the Paladin token which more than makes up for it in other areas (as Kirk pointed out all of it's bonuses are essentially slotless since it can be swapped out with another weapon).

Does anyone else agree the Legendaries should all be balanced, even though they are spread out over a number of years? If so - does it seem to anyone else that this year's Legendaries are FAR more powerful than last years? It seems to me that the bonus damage could be stripped completely and they'd still be on par with last year.


I would say last years lute was stronger than many of this years legendary’s. It was SLOTLESS took the Bard song bonus to +4, +4, reroll bad saves, and Bard can do a normal action and free action as though Bard song wasn’t being preformed. It’s strong enough that I considered making one just to lone out to anyone playing with me that wanted to play Bard. I think the Lute is the Most OP legendary so far.
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2020 Transmuted Token Images 1 year 2 months ago #69

Mike Steele wrote: Does anyone else agree the Legendaries should all be balanced, even though they are spread out over a number of years? If so - does it seem to anyone else that this year's Legendaries are FAR more powerful than last years? It seems to me that the bonus damage could be stripped completely and they'd still be on par with last year.



Having seen the bard, druid, and rogue legendaries in action at Origins, it does not seem that way to me at all.

The bard legendary is probably by far the most powerful of them all. The bonus it provides to the whole party is just insane.

The rogue legendary is pretty bonkers. Ask Fred about it.

The druid legendary is also awesome. Beertram was just wrecking things with it. Definitely heard a DM or two give some "wow"s after calculating his damage on certain things after factoring in the extra damage from shape-shifting appropriately. (EDIT: Beertram informed me he was only using the RELIC - jeeeeeez)


The paladin is a guarding/protecting class. Having the Holy Avenger add to that seems appropriate. I do not agree with the "take away saves and add retribution damage" crowd. Taking away the saves from the Holy Avenger again basically negates the one thing that ALWAYS works in a dungeon. If you've ever played paladin you've gone an entire dungeon sometimes without your double guard working a single time. Guard is not this brick wall of stop everything that many seem to think it is. It doesn't work against ranged, spell, or just DM deciding to target someone else.

The barbarian is a raging/damage class. Having them add damage seems appropriate. Adding a new neat ability also seems appropriate.

The monk is a damage/bag o tricks class. Having it add damage and some tricks seems appropriate.



Monk difference just on stat points assuming Medallion of Valhalla:
With Valhalla: +2hit/damage (4 total stat points) and 10hps and 2 fort save
With new neck: +8 damage (8 total stat points)

Barb difference just on stat points assuming Medallion of Valhalla:
With Valhalla: +2hit/damage (4 total stat points) and 10 hps and 2 fort save
with new neck: +16 damage


For going from UR to class legendary, these don't seem like humongous gaps to me.
Last edit: by jpotter.
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2020 Transmuted Token Images 1 year 2 months ago #70

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Wayne Rhodes wrote:

Mike Steele wrote: Since every class is getting a Class Specific Relic and Legendary, it seems important (to me at least) that they all be pretty balanced in order of power. It seems to me that the power of this year's Legendary tokens far exceeds last year's. To be honest, this year's Relics seem to me to be more powerful than last year's Legendaries. For instance, last year none of the Class Legendary tokens granted bonus combat or spell damage, while this year they all do, except for the Paladin token which more than makes up for it in other areas (as Kirk pointed out all of it's bonuses are essentially slotless since it can be swapped out with another weapon).

Does anyone else agree the Legendaries should all be balanced, even though they are spread out over a number of years? If so - does it seem to anyone else that this year's Legendaries are FAR more powerful than last years? It seems to me that the bonus damage could be stripped completely and they'd still be on par with last year.


I would say last years lute was stronger than many of this years legendary’s. It was SLOTLESS took the Bard song bonus to +4, +4, reroll bad saves, and Bard can do a normal action and free action as though Bard song wasn’t being preformed. It’s strong enough that I considered making one just to lone out to anyone playing with me that wanted to play Bard. I think the Lute is the Most OP legendary so far.


+1

Not the most op but stronger legendary as of now. Gap has been greatly reduced. Rogue I feel is pretty strong IF they have nightshade or viper strike set. And with ranged crit being added on essential a reprint on UR will makes their legendary even stronger.
Last edit: by Kakitahan .
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2020 Transmuted Token Images 1 year 2 months ago #71

Mike Steele wrote: For instance, last year none of the Class Legendary tokens granted bonus combat or spell damage, while this year they all do, except for the Paladin token which more than makes up for it in other areas (as Kirk pointed out all of it's bonuses are essentially slotless since it can be swapped out with another weapon).


I agree that this year's seem better than last years (except ranger). The Paladin one simply is not slotless, and it doesnt differ at all from those who build in the app with a one handed weapon, then swap to a 2 handed weapon and have to tell the DM to drop their AC.

The discussion of whether or not guard should or shouldnt stack is nothing compared to the power level of monks and barbarians in my opinion.

Yes, I play a lot of Paladin, and I do want the guard to stack. That said, I dont think guard will even be necessary when we have monks stunning every room (or nearly every room) and barbarians getting a non-natural 20 every room. Monsters will get 1 round to attack at most with that, less if the monk and barbarian have a charm of quick strike and the party rolls well for initiative.
And the monk can do it at range!
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2020 Transmuted Token Images 1 year 2 months ago #72

Mike Steele wrote:
Does anyone else agree the Legendaries should all be balanced, even though they are spread out over a number of years? If so - does it seem to anyone else that this year's Legendaries are FAR more powerful than last years? It seems to me that the bonus damage could be stripped completely and they'd still be on par with last year.


Respectfully disagree. They're legendary. They cost hundreds (most over $1k) to make. They are the Welfor's and the Asher's and the Drue's and the Drake's for the new generations of players. They should be powerful.
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