TOPIC: 2020 Transmuted Token Images

Wade Schwendemann wrote:

Mike Steele wrote: And again, if this is OK, what is the problem of a UR incorporating Potion of Leaping ability? If that's too overpowered to print, this is even more overpowered.

Where are you getting the idea that your proposed token is too powerful?

Also, maybe your proposed token should be a relic or legendary in itself.

If the argument is that GotFF are very, very good, and maybe shouldnt have been printed, sure. I can't argue with that.

I proposed a UR with Potion of Leaping ability in multiple years, and the overwhelming response was that it was too powerful to print without major limitations. TPTB apparently agree because the only tokens like that which have been printed, like Gnomish Fizzy Pack, are so limited they're pretty much worthless.

Given that, and that the Monk is probably the worst class to give this ability to due to their highest level of melee damage, I think it's a mistake to include the ability in the Legendary. I'd even recommend GotFF get reprinted and nerfed like the LoDS and Cloak of Shadowskin.

Mike Steele wrote: I proposed a UR with Potion of Leaping ability in multiple years, and the overwhelming response was that it was too powerful to print without major limitations. TPTB apparently agree because the only tokens like that which have been printed, like Gnomish Fizzy Pack, are so limited they're pretty much worthless.

They did print a rare with a similar but lesser ability just last year. Boots of Bounding

Milambus (Jake) wrote:

Mike Steele wrote: I proposed a UR with Potion of Leaping ability in multiple years, and the overwhelming response was that it was too powerful to print without major limitations. TPTB apparently agree because the only tokens like that which have been printed, like Gnomish Fizzy Pack, are so limited they're pretty much worthless.

They did print a rare with a similar but lesser ability just last year. Boots of Bounding

Yep, that would have been a good token but the once per room limit made it pretty underpowered. It and the Fizzy Pack are perfect examples of how this ability is limited for all classes but Monk. Which is the last class which should have the ability to do melee attacks at range.

Mike Steele wrote:
I'm not in agreement that the Ranger legendary is underwhelming, I think it's more powerful than the previous class Legendaries. I think the Legendaries this year need to be scaled back to the power level of last year.

I’ve seen you echo this sentiment. A lot.

Iktomi’s Shaper Necklace
1a. Acts as a weapon…only one other class Legendary can be slid in a puck – the Avenger.
1b. Iktomi’s has an average damage of 11. Compare to Thor’s and Drue’s that only have 8.5 & 9.5 respectively. So even if you’re a maxed out Druid, you’ve improved your damage by 1.5 here.
1c. Iktomi’s has a high of 18. Compare to Thor’s and Drue’s that only have 11 & 13 respectively. Improvement of +5 at the top end of Druid weapons.
2a. Bestows elemental benefit. When used offensively, this allows the Druid to gain +5 damage against enemies who may be vulnerable to Shock/Sonic/Fire/Cold.
2b. When elemental benefit is used defensively, it allows the Druid to gain 10 DR from Shock/Sonic/Fire/Cold.
3. While in Polymorph, the Druid can also speak and cast spells. This combined with the instantaneous Polymorph into any elemental (or Potion Polymorph) is basically Shirt of the Fae. It’s actually better, because Shirt of the Fae requires that you give up your free action.

Ralson’s Pendant of the Elder Yew
1a. +6 damage when in Range.
1b. Another +3 for each ammo.
2. Can read 2 scrolls per game.
3. Upgraded Charm of Shadow Shot.
4. +4 to CON.

Comparison
1. So the Ranger gets +6 damage to Sharp Shooter. The Druid gets +5 if taking advantage of vulnerability. Pretty close here. One could argue that the Ranger's damage is constant while the Druid's is situational. I would argue that the added defensive option on Iktomi's Elemental Benefit evens them out.
2. Animal companion is a much harder benefit to quantify, but let’s try:
Average polymorph wheels:
Cave Bear – 8.33
Shark – 8
Cobra – 7.5
Bear – 7
Viper – 7
Giant Spider – 6
Scrael – 6
Gremlin – 5.5
Lemure – 5
Asp – 4.75
Brownie – 3.5
Otter – 2.5
Some of these potions have a higher max. The snakes have 20s, the bears have 12s, and even the Giant Spider has a 15. The fact remains that in exchange for freeing up Charm of Shadow Shot, the Ranger will need to burn consumables. Furthermore, anything with an average damage wheel that is higher than 6 are not-easy-to-find rares.
3. Ammo the Ranger utilizes gains + 3 damage. Again…the Ranger is capitalizing off of consumables. This makes the damage gap larger between Ralson's and Iktomi's, but at a real-world cost. So if you’d prefer to think of it another way- the Ranger gets to spend $$$ to always get +9 damage. The Druid spends nothing to sometimes get +5 damage.
4. Rangers can read two scrolls with Ralson's. This is again very hard to quantify. We’re still awaiting confirmation of what types of scrolls the Ranger can read, but if it’s all of them…then this ability will truly be quite powerful.
However, we can’t ignore the opportunity cost. The Ranger will be using his standard action to read a scroll. He will not be attacking in either of those two rounds where he reads a scroll, and he will also be burning a consumable.
5. The +4 CON. The Cloak that goes into the legendary is +3 CON. I think this is peanuts with getting a free Shirt of the Fae. The Ranger nets +1 CON while the Druid nets 1 free action per round of combat (more if he changes back and forth).



If you look at the Ranger legendary and strip away all of its consumable requirements, it's a $1000 token that grants +4 CON and +6 damage.

Druids, on the other hand, get the best weapon they've ever had access to.

Pound for pound, Ralson's is probably more powerful. But that's only if you dump money into it after you've spent $1000 or more obtaining one.

Strip away the consumable perks of Ralson's and compare it to Iktomi's for the benefits each have from the get-go and I think Iktomi's is better. That's IMHO a good design space for them both to exist in.

Mike Steele wrote: It and the Fizzy Pack are perfect examples of how this ability is limited for all classes but Monk. Which is the last class which should have the ability to do melee attacks at range.

I would respectively suggest it is the first class to get that ability. When you think of an attacker flying through the air to land a blow do you picture a plated warrior armor or a martial warrior in robes. Because Monk's don't wear heavy armor they would be closest to a flying attack.

Ed

MasterED wrote:

Mike Steele wrote: It and the Fizzy Pack are perfect examples of how this ability is limited for all classes but Monk. Which is the last class which should have the ability to do melee attacks at range.

I would respectively suggest it is the first class to get that ability. When you think of an attacker flying through the air to land a blow do you picture a plated warrior armor or a martial warrior in robes. Because Monk's don't wear heavy armor they would be closest to a flying attack.

Ed

With names "Necklace of the Spirit Drake" and "Benrow's Elder Drake Necklace", I am interpreting the "may hit Ranged target w/ FoB" thematically as the monk gaining the ability to fly like a Drake to strike enemies.

To me, this is the only thematic tie-in to the actual naming of the relic/legendary.

I was hoping it would be actually changed to "Fly" but maybe it causes some confusion for puzzle solving similar to the Gnomish Fizzy Lifting Pack when bypassing puzzle mechanics by "flying over it" is not an option. Of course, maybe saying "May Fly in combat" would fix that part.

MasterED wrote:

Mike Steele wrote: It and the Fizzy Pack are perfect examples of how this ability is limited for all classes but Monk. Which is the last class which should have the ability to do melee attacks at range.

I would respectively suggest it is the first class to get that ability. When you think of an attacker flying through the air to land a blow do you picture a plated warrior armor or a martial warrior in robes. Because Monk's don't wear heavy armor they would be closest to a flying attack.

Ed

Thematically you may be correct. From a power balancing perspective I don't think you should take a class that does the most damage in the game at melee and give them a token which now lets them do the most damage in melee and ranged, and be able to roll their melee to hit roll for both.

Mike Steele wrote: Thematically you may be correct. From a power balancing perspective I don't think you should take a class that does the most damage in the game at melee and give them a token which now lets them do the most damage in melee and ranged, and be able to roll their melee to hit roll for both.

I can respect that. Personally, one thing I don't like is how we can build a Fighter with nearly the same DPS as the Barbarian/Ranger/Monk but they get to wear the best armor in the game. I guess ultimately it comes down to two factors. One each person puts a different value on attributes (like DPS, AC, special abilities) and TPTB believe not all classes should be equally offensively balanced because it is a team game and each player has has special abilities.

Ed

I have seen several discussions that come up now and again about nerfing the Gloves of the Flying Fist...

How would this be nerfed in a way that doesn't obsolete this token?

The assumed "breaking point" would be where a monk swaps over to Gloves of the Brute or Gauntlets of the Midgard Serpent and uses a Potion Leaping Attack with Pouch of Tulz or some other token that grants potion drinking as a free action.

• 1/room, that makes it as useful as the Gnomish Fizzy Lifting Pack, and nearly every monk would drop it off their build.
• 1/game for entire room, it doesn't really change much as very few dungeons have more than 1 ranged encounter, grind excluded.
• Using ranged to-hit but keep the melee damage modifiers? That could possibly make sense, but I don't know if it makes the DM's job any harder.
• Using melee to-hit but ranged damage modifiers does not makes sense to me mechanically.

An idea that would take a larger "buy-in" from TPTB would involve adding a "ki" resource pool to fuel the monk's special abilities and have the Gloves of the Flying Fist consume "ki".

Other things "ki" might fuel could be:

• Deflect Missile
• Feather Fall
• Activating Improve Evasion
• Basically anything else on the monk card
• Maybe some other bonuses using the Wisdom modifier like self healing?

I like the "ki" idea as it gives more agency for which abilities to activate instead of having a handful of things that the monk can do that have not come into play in the main dungeon for 5+ years (deflect missile, feather fall).

It sounds like class cards are being adjusted soon so I am hoping for some more engaging mechanics with some of the class designs.

*Edit:
It would also feel really sucky if the relic/legendary had this effect and then for it to be nerfed later.
Also GotFF does not negate retribution damage... so there's at least some drawback.

Arnold wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:
I'm not in agreement that the Ranger legendary is underwhelming, I think it's more powerful than the previous class Legendaries. I think the Legendaries this year need to be scaled back to the power level of last year.

I’ve seen you echo this sentiment. A lot.

Iktomi’s Shaper Necklace
1a. Acts as a weapon…only one other class Legendary can be slid in a puck – the Avenger.
1b. Iktomi’s has an average damage of 11. Compare to Thor’s and Drue’s that only have 8.5 & 9.5 respectively. So even if you’re a maxed out Druid, you’ve improved your damage by 1.5 here.
1c. Iktomi’s has a high of 18. Compare to Thor’s and Drue’s that only have 11 & 13 respectively. Improvement of +5 at the top end of Druid weapons.
2a. Bestows elemental benefit. When used offensively, this allows the Druid to gain +5 damage against enemies who may be vulnerable to Shock/Sonic/Fire/Cold.
2b. When elemental benefit is used defensively, it allows the Druid to gain 10 DR from Shock/Sonic/Fire/Cold.
3. While in Polymorph, the Druid can also speak and cast spells. This combined with the instantaneous Polymorph into any elemental (or Potion Polymorph) is basically Shirt of the Fae. It’s actually better, because Shirt of the Fae requires that you give up your free action.

Ralson’s Pendant of the Elder Yew
1a. +6 damage when in Range.
1b. Another +3 for each ammo.
2. Can read 2 scrolls per game.
3. Upgraded Charm of Shadow Shot.
4. +4 to CON.

Comparison
1. So the Ranger gets +6 damage to Sharp Shooter. The Druid gets +5 if taking advantage of vulnerability. Pretty close here. One could argue that the Ranger's damage is constant while the Druid's is situational. I would argue that the added defensive option on Iktomi's Elemental Benefit evens them out.
2. Animal companion is a much harder benefit to quantify, but let’s try:
Average polymorph wheels:
Cave Bear – 8.33
Shark – 8
Cobra – 7.5
Bear – 7
Viper – 7
Giant Spider – 6
Scrael – 6
Gremlin – 5.5
Lemure – 5
Asp – 4.75
Brownie – 3.5
Otter – 2.5
Some of these potions have a higher max. The snakes have 20s, the bears have 12s, and even the Giant Spider has a 15. The fact remains that in exchange for freeing up Charm of Shadow Shot, the Ranger will need to burn consumables. Furthermore, anything with an average damage wheel that is higher than 6 are not-easy-to-find rares.
3. Ammo the Ranger utilizes gains + 3 damage. Again…the Ranger is capitalizing off of consumables. This makes the damage gap larger between Ralson's and Iktomi's, but at a real-world cost. So if you’d prefer to think of it another way- the Ranger gets to spend $$$ to always get +9 damage. The Druid spends nothing to sometimes get +5 damage.
4. Rangers can read two scrolls with Ralson's. This is again very hard to quantify. We’re still awaiting confirmation of what types of scrolls the Ranger can read, but if it’s all of them…then this ability will truly be quite powerful.
However, we can’t ignore the opportunity cost. The Ranger will be using his standard action to read a scroll. He will not be attacking in either of those two rounds where he reads a scroll, and he will also be burning a consumable.
5. The +4 CON. The Cloak that goes into the legendary is +3 CON. I think this is peanuts with getting a free Shirt of the Fae. The Ranger nets +1 CON while the Druid nets 1 free action per round of combat (more if he changes back and forth).



If you look at the Ranger legendary and strip away all of its consumable requirements, it's a $1000 token that grants +4 CON and +6 damage.

Druids, on the other hand, get the best weapon they've ever had access to.

Pound for pound, Ralson's is probably more powerful. But that's only if you dump money into it after you've spent $1000 or more obtaining one.

Strip away the consumable perks of Ralson's and compare it to Iktomi's for the benefits each have from the get-go and I think Iktomi's is better. That's IMHO a good design space for them both to exist in.

(1st) This comparison is with the Ranger token, which of the bunch is likely the only one that needs a bit of love. I say this because I don't think they can keep up in ranged damage with a Rogue which feels wrong.

(2nd) Any comparison should include the Ranger having Io's which has a better damage wheel than the Druid has access to.

(3rd) Druid's only get to use one form in combat. Being in the form that grants extra damage or has the correct resistance is not a given unless the Druid wants to wait to polymorph until after the first round of combat.

(4th) The Druid's DR and damage types are matched, and you likely can't use both in the same combat.

You can make an argument that Ranger's need a better item, because they are behind the power curve and I would likely agree with you. I just don't see the proposed Ranger item and the Druid item from last year as being similar in power. The Druid item is just inherently more limiting.

Edited for clarity

OrionW wrote:

Arnold wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:
I'm not in agreement that the Ranger legendary is underwhelming, I think it's more powerful than the previous class Legendaries. I think the Legendaries this year need to be scaled back to the power level of last year.

I’ve seen you echo this sentiment. A lot.

Iktomi’s Shaper Necklace
1a. Acts as a weapon…only one other class Legendary can be slid in a puck – the Avenger.
1b. Iktomi’s has an average damage of 11. Compare to Thor’s and Drue’s that only have 8.5 & 9.5 respectively. So even if you’re a maxed out Druid, you’ve improved your damage by 1.5 here.
1c. Iktomi’s has a high of 18. Compare to Thor’s and Drue’s that only have 11 & 13 respectively. Improvement of +5 at the top end of Druid weapons.
2a. Bestows elemental benefit. When used offensively, this allows the Druid to gain +5 damage against enemies who may be vulnerable to Shock/Sonic/Fire/Cold.
2b. When elemental benefit is used defensively, it allows the Druid to gain 10 DR from Shock/Sonic/Fire/Cold.
3. While in Polymorph, the Druid can also speak and cast spells. This combined with the instantaneous Polymorph into any elemental (or Potion Polymorph) is basically Shirt of the Fae. It’s actually better, because Shirt of the Fae requires that you give up your free action.

Ralson’s Pendant of the Elder Yew
1a. +6 damage when in Range.
1b. Another +3 for each ammo.
2. Can read 2 scrolls per game.
3. Upgraded Charm of Shadow Shot.
4. +4 to CON.

Comparison
1. So the Ranger gets +6 damage to Sharp Shooter. The Druid gets +5 if taking advantage of vulnerability. Pretty close here. One could argue that the Ranger's damage is constant while the Druid's is situational. I would argue that the added defensive option on Iktomi's Elemental Benefit evens them out.
2. Animal companion is a much harder benefit to quantify, but let’s try:
Average polymorph wheels:
Cave Bear – 8.33
Shark – 8
Cobra – 7.5
Bear – 7
Viper – 7
Giant Spider – 6
Scrael – 6
Gremlin – 5.5
Lemure – 5
Asp – 4.75
Brownie – 3.5
Otter – 2.5
Some of these potions have a higher max. The snakes have 20s, the bears have 12s, and even the Giant Spider has a 15. The fact remains that in exchange for freeing up Charm of Shadow Shot, the Ranger will need to burn consumables. Furthermore, anything with an average damage wheel that is higher than 6 are not-easy-to-find rares.
3. Ammo the Ranger utilizes gains + 3 damage. Again…the Ranger is capitalizing off of consumables. This makes the damage gap larger between Ralson's and Iktomi's, but at a real-world cost. So if you’d prefer to think of it another way- the Ranger gets to spend $$$ to always get +9 damage. The Druid spends nothing to sometimes get +5 damage.
4. Rangers can read two scrolls with Ralson's. This is again very hard to quantify. We’re still awaiting confirmation of what types of scrolls the Ranger can read, but if it’s all of them…then this ability will truly be quite powerful.
However, we can’t ignore the opportunity cost. The Ranger will be using his standard action to read a scroll. He will not be attacking in either of those two rounds where he reads a scroll, and he will also be burning a consumable.
5. The +4 CON. The Cloak that goes into the legendary is +3 CON. I think this is peanuts with getting a free Shirt of the Fae. The Ranger nets +1 CON while the Druid nets 1 free action per round of combat (more if he changes back and forth).



If you look at the Ranger legendary and strip away all of its consumable requirements, it's a $1000 token that grants +4 CON and +6 damage.

Druids, on the other hand, get the best weapon they've ever had access to.

Pound for pound, Ralson's is probably more powerful. But that's only if you dump money into it after you've spent $1000 or more obtaining one.

Strip away the consumable perks of Ralson's and compare it to Iktomi's for the benefits each have from the get-go and I think Iktomi's is better. That's IMHO a good design space for them both to exist in.

(1st) This comparison is with the Ranger token, which of the bunch is likely the only one that needs a bit of love. I say this because I don't think they can keep up in ranged damage with a Rogue which feels wrong.

(2nd) Any comparison should include the Ranger having Io's which has a better damage wheel than the Druid has access to.

(3rd) Druid's only get to use one form in combat. Being in the form that grants extra damage or has the correct resistance is not a given unless the Druid wants to wait to polymorph until after the first round of combat.

(4th) The Druid's DR and damage types are matched, and you likely can't use both in the same combat.

You can make an argument that Ranger's need a better item, because they are behind the power curve and I would likely agree with you. I just don't see the proposed Ranger item and the Druid item from last year as being similar in power. The Druid item is just inherently more limiting.

Edited for clarity

Why does the Druid have to wait until after the first round of combat to determine what element to polymorph into? If you're waiting on the Lore check of the Bard, make sure your Bard talks to the DM first to get their Lore check and then Polymorph and slide. Is there a different reason you'd be waiting?

Fiddy wrote:

OrionW wrote:

Arnold wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:
I'm not in agreement that the Ranger legendary is underwhelming, I think it's more powerful than the previous class Legendaries. I think the Legendaries this year need to be scaled back to the power level of last year.

I’ve seen you echo this sentiment. A lot.

Iktomi’s Shaper Necklace
1a. Acts as a weapon…only one other class Legendary can be slid in a puck – the Avenger.
1b. Iktomi’s has an average damage of 11. Compare to Thor’s and Drue’s that only have 8.5 & 9.5 respectively. So even if you’re a maxed out Druid, you’ve improved your damage by 1.5 here.
1c. Iktomi’s has a high of 18. Compare to Thor’s and Drue’s that only have 11 & 13 respectively. Improvement of +5 at the top end of Druid weapons.
2a. Bestows elemental benefit. When used offensively, this allows the Druid to gain +5 damage against enemies who may be vulnerable to Shock/Sonic/Fire/Cold.
2b. When elemental benefit is used defensively, it allows the Druid to gain 10 DR from Shock/Sonic/Fire/Cold.
3. While in Polymorph, the Druid can also speak and cast spells. This combined with the instantaneous Polymorph into any elemental (or Potion Polymorph) is basically Shirt of the Fae. It’s actually better, because Shirt of the Fae requires that you give up your free action.

Ralson’s Pendant of the Elder Yew
1a. +6 damage when in Range.
1b. Another +3 for each ammo.
2. Can read 2 scrolls per game.
3. Upgraded Charm of Shadow Shot.
4. +4 to CON.

Comparison
1. So the Ranger gets +6 damage to Sharp Shooter. The Druid gets +5 if taking advantage of vulnerability. Pretty close here. One could argue that the Ranger's damage is constant while the Druid's is situational. I would argue that the added defensive option on Iktomi's Elemental Benefit evens them out.
2. Animal companion is a much harder benefit to quantify, but let’s try:
Average polymorph wheels:
Cave Bear – 8.33
Shark – 8
Cobra – 7.5
Bear – 7
Viper – 7
Giant Spider – 6
Scrael – 6
Gremlin – 5.5
Lemure – 5
Asp – 4.75
Brownie – 3.5
Otter – 2.5
Some of these potions have a higher max. The snakes have 20s, the bears have 12s, and even the Giant Spider has a 15. The fact remains that in exchange for freeing up Charm of Shadow Shot, the Ranger will need to burn consumables. Furthermore, anything with an average damage wheel that is higher than 6 are not-easy-to-find rares.
3. Ammo the Ranger utilizes gains + 3 damage. Again…the Ranger is capitalizing off of consumables. This makes the damage gap larger between Ralson's and Iktomi's, but at a real-world cost. So if you’d prefer to think of it another way- the Ranger gets to spend $$$ to always get +9 damage. The Druid spends nothing to sometimes get +5 damage.
4. Rangers can read two scrolls with Ralson's. This is again very hard to quantify. We’re still awaiting confirmation of what types of scrolls the Ranger can read, but if it’s all of them…then this ability will truly be quite powerful.
However, we can’t ignore the opportunity cost. The Ranger will be using his standard action to read a scroll. He will not be attacking in either of those two rounds where he reads a scroll, and he will also be burning a consumable.
5. The +4 CON. The Cloak that goes into the legendary is +3 CON. I think this is peanuts with getting a free Shirt of the Fae. The Ranger nets +1 CON while the Druid nets 1 free action per round of combat (more if he changes back and forth).



If you look at the Ranger legendary and strip away all of its consumable requirements, it's a $1000 token that grants +4 CON and +6 damage.

Druids, on the other hand, get the best weapon they've ever had access to.

Pound for pound, Ralson's is probably more powerful. But that's only if you dump money into it after you've spent $1000 or more obtaining one.

Strip away the consumable perks of Ralson's and compare it to Iktomi's for the benefits each have from the get-go and I think Iktomi's is better. That's IMHO a good design space for them both to exist in.

(1st) This comparison is with the Ranger token, which of the bunch is likely the only one that needs a bit of love. I say this because I don't think they can keep up in ranged damage with a Rogue which feels wrong.

(2nd) Any comparison should include the Ranger having Io's which has a better damage wheel than the Druid has access to.

(3rd) Druid's only get to use one form in combat. Being in the form that grants extra damage or has the correct resistance is not a given unless the Druid wants to wait to polymorph until after the first round of combat.

(4th) The Druid's DR and damage types are matched, and you likely can't use both in the same combat.

You can make an argument that Ranger's need a better item, because they are behind the power curve and I would likely agree with you. I just don't see the proposed Ranger item and the Druid item from last year as being similar in power. The Druid item is just inherently more limiting.

Edited for clarity

Why does the Druid have to wait until after the first round of combat to determine what element to polymorph into? If you're waiting on the Lore check of the Bard, make sure your Bard talks to the DM first to get their Lore check and then Polymorph and slide. Is there a different reason you'd be waiting?

As a practical mater I think you would always just guess and attack on the first round. If you want to know for sure (trying to match damage types), you either have to spirit bowl, wait for a Bard lore check, or wait to see what type of damage the creature does. My point is that unlike the Crown of Elemental Mastery you can't just switch to the correct damage type if you don't get it right the first time.