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TOPIC: 2020 Transmuted Token Images

2020 Transmuted Token Images 1 year 6 months ago #133

Ok I am going off the deep end here so bare with me...

I have been playing around with some other ideas for the Pally Legendary that is a step outside the current parameters. I agree that we should have the pally player lock the weapon into the main hand slot. What better way than to have others help keep the individual accountable and gain something of benefit. I was a huge WoW player back in the day who mained paladin. I loved the idea of auras like a Holy Aura / Divine Justice kinda thing. Since most are looking to the paladin to be the tank / protector lets give them a inspiring presence / leadership with their legendary.

Ava's +5 Holy Avenger
6-8-9-9-10-11-13-14
20 slide kills Evil Outsider
+3 saves TO PARTY
+1 guard(does not stack)
+10 Lay on hands

OR


Ava's +5 Holy Avenger
6-8-9-9-10-11-13-14
20 slide kills Evil Outsider
party gains DR3
+1 guard(does not stack)
+10 Lay on hands
Last edit: by Justice.
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2020 Transmuted Token Images 1 year 6 months ago #134

I think it was mentioned in the other thread but I still feel like the ring or stam needs 2-3 fort save added to it to make it seem on par with a 4 star transmute.

And it seems like everyone is in agreement that the ranger neck is underwhelming but what if the read scrolls was taken off and a bonus to initiative is added, seems on par with the class like they are a scout
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2020 Transmuted Token Images 1 year 6 months ago #135

Thinking about it further, I think the Barbarian legendary could be toned down a bit in addition to the Monk.

In the model I maintain, assuming all monsters are crittable, the current format pushes the Barbarian into first place damage dealer.

Now - I admit I haven't paid attention to what proportion of monsters are crittable - so maybe this isn't as bit of a deal as I think it is, and my model is overestimating the damage by quite a bit. (My model assumes 3 rooms, 10 combat rounds, and a crittable monster in each room).

On the other hand, if we're going to keep making stackable STR and usable by all melee damage boosters, maybe it's OK as is, as sooner or later Monks and Rangers will catch up, and then surpass again.

Anyway, I might reduce the Barbarian to:

Fury: On the next slide your crit range is 15-20

And bring down the damage to +8 or something.

Alternatively, I might make Fury not usable until the Barbarian has been damaged by a monster in the room.


(I also think the Monk's damage bonus should to go to +5, or it should lose the "may attack ranged enemies with melee" ability).
Last edit: by Matthew Hayward.
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2020 Transmuted Token Images 1 year 6 months ago #136

Justice wrote: Ok I am going off the deep end here so bare with me...

I have been playing around with some other ideas for the Pally Legendary that is a step outside the current parameters. I agree that we should have the pally player lock the weapon into the main hand slot. What better way than to have others help keep the individual accountable and gain something of benefit. I was a huge WoW player back in the day who mained paladin. I loved the idea of auras like a Holy Aura / Divine Justice kinda thing. Since most are looking to the paladin to be the tank / protector lets give them a inspiring presence / leadership with their legendary.

Ava's +5 Holy Avenger
6-8-9-9-10-11-13-14
20 slide kills Evil Outsider
+3 saves TO PARTY
+1 guard(does not stack)
+10 Lay on hands

OR


Ava's +5 Holy Avenger
6-8-9-9-10-11-13-14
20 slide kills Evil Outsider
party gains DR3
+1 guard(does not stack)
+10 Lay on hands


Given the option, I would go with party save
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2020 Transmuted Token Images 1 year 6 months ago #137

Matthew Hayward wrote:
Another way of looking at is is that Bards have been using a "class based legendary" since 2008, when it was accidentally printed at UR.

I guess it depends on if you're trying to measure distance from prior UR, or dead reckoning on power level.

Widseth's Legendary provides, as a slotless* effect:

1. Two standard actions per round, as long as one of them is Bardsong. Unlimited free actions necessary to get your hands right allowing you to do things like perform bardsong, perform a two handed bow ranged attack, and read a scroll off shield of the scholar all in the same turn.

2. +2 to hit and damage for the entire party. That's like upgrading everyone's uncommon weapons to UR, or rares to Relics, or Relics to Legendaries.

Again... slotless*.

This is enormously powerful. It's also not a tremendous difference from UR Widseth's Mystical Lute.

Whether to measure based on prior BiS or based on total power level is a matter of opinion I suppose, without having an otherwise defined goal to optimize for.


* Not technically slotless, but practically slotless - if you disagree please propose a scenario where this token's behavior differs materially from what it would be if it was technically slotless.


Uh... Not exactly. You are making a few equivalencies here that are messing around with what is actually going on rules-wise, and that can lead to some misunderstandings, so I'm just trying to clarify.

With the Legendary Lute, Bard can Bardsong and perform any standard action at the same time. While Bardsong is normally a standard action, and it is easy to draw a practical equivalency here, the Legendary does not in fact grant two standard actions as long as one of them is Bardsong. Bardsong happens at the same time while the Bard does any standard action. The Lute is still a two-handed token, and as such whatever you do with your standard and one free action has to agree with what you could do without the Lute. So, in your example, if I were to use a two-handed ranged weapon to attack (a former attack strategy of mine with which I am very familiar), I would not have access to the Shield of the Scholar to cast a scroll in the same round, as the Shield cannot be equipped in the off-hand ranged slot. This means I would need to use my one free action that round to change the ranged weapon out for my melee set which includes the Shield. If I had started the attack with a one-handed melee weapon and the Shield in off-hand melee slot, I could use my free action to cast a scroll from the Shield, just like normal.

One free action, always and forever, and hands count, even through the magic of the Lute.

That's why it might seem practically slotless, but it isn't when it comes to switching out what you would have in your hands while using the Lute. Think of it more like the Lute creates a magical pair of hands to do what you would normally do. It does not allow you to break the rules of equipped items or switching things out to do something else.

The big thing that the Lute does with regard to the free action is free it up a bit by not having to swap instruments each round to do the standard action you want to do while maintaining Bardsong. For example, previously I would start with Lyre of Lore, Bardsong as a standard and do the Monster Lore check at the same time, then use my free action to switch to Widseth's or use a free-action-unlocker token to do something in prep for the next round (Tulz, Quiver of Annointment, etc.). I couldn't use the Shield because the Lyre of Lore took up both hands to use. Next round with Widseth's equipped I could use my melee or ranged set. Bardsong as a standard and attack at the same time, free action to do whatever I have available (I was ranged, so I would usually choose to down a Cat's Grace potion and then attack with +1 ammo so I wouldn't have to slide very high to hit the creature). If I didn't use my free action to swap out for Widseth's, I could use my free action in the second round to make the swap and attack as usual. After that there wasn't much point in switching instruments, so the free action was free to do whatever utility needed to be done for third round, which was usually nothing as the combat would typically end in the third or fourth round.

With the Legendary Lute, the same strategy applies, only now I don't have to switch out the instrument in the first round. So now my strategy is Bardsong and Monster Lore as standard action, free action to drink a potion or cast a spell from Ring of Spell Storing (especially if Troubadour). If I was a combat sliding Bard, I'd use that free action to switch to either ranged or melee, and if melee I'm set up to use the Shield next round. Second round, Bardsong and cast two scrolls with Lenses of Sage Speed, one as standard and the other as a free action. If sliding, Bardsong and attack slide, and Shield for a scroll as a free action.

The Legendary Lute acts sort of like a wild instrument, allowing me to do Bardsong and any standard action at the same time, but I still have to obey the rules of what's in my hands and one free action. I understand how it might seem practically slotless, but there's more going on behind the rules of the Legendary Lute than first appears.

As to your second point, I agree completely, only your number is off slightly. A 5th level Bard with Legendary Lute grants everyone in the party +4/+4, which effectively results in everyone wielding near legendary weapons at a minimum, and since legendary equipment is typically reserved for nightmare runs, we're talking potential +9 uber-legendary weapon levels over normal here. Having that Legendary Lute-wielding Bard in the party can cause a huge swing in everyone's favor, and is the reason why Incognito has an exterminate with extreme prejudice policy towards all Bards in Grind.

The save reroll has already saved the party once, during a run at Origins. Turning that nat 1 into a nat 15 felt great.

I love my Legendary Lute. But I also acknowledge that it "goes to 11" as regards the level of power it brings to the party. For PUGs, I purposely dial it down to be appropriate, and sometimes don't take all the actions that are available to me, playing as if I had an uncommon instrument for the room. I want to support the other players in having fun, not turn the dungeon into a cakewalk. Unless cakewalks are what the other players think is fun. Either way, I'm good.

So while directly to me personally as an individual player it doesn't do a whole lot, it definitely does a lot for the whole party, and that's why it is possibly in the top tier of the legendary tokens rating meter for some experienced TD players.
Avatar Image by Graven, 2015. Thanks, Graven!
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2020 Transmuted Token Images 1 year 6 months ago #138

Steven wrote: I think it was mentioned in the other thread but I still feel like the ring or stam needs 2-3 fort save added to it to make it seem on par with a 4 star transmute.

And it seems like everyone is in agreement that the ranger neck is underwhelming but what if the read scrolls was taken off and a bonus to initiative is added, seems on par with the class like they are a scout


I'm not in agreement that the Ranger legendary is underwhelming, I think it's more powerful than the previous class Legendaries. I think the Legendaries this year need to be scaled back to the power level of last year.
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2020 Transmuted Token Images 1 year 6 months ago #139

I think the posts that are talking about how awesome the Bard Legendary is are really talking about how awesome Bardsong in general is. A 5th Level Bard with a +1 Fae Blowgun Flute can attack every turn and still give the party +2/+4 every turn. Lyre of Lore allows the Lore Check and the same +2/+4 Damage. I think the Legendary needs to be looked at for the additional +2 to hit over Rare level tokens, not for the entire +4/+4 to the party. You can get the equivalent of that +2 to hit for the party from one successful hit from a UR Cestus of Sundering, but that must not be too overpowered because it's not a popular token (although my group uses them every combat).
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2020 Transmuted Token Images 1 year 6 months ago #140

Mike Steele wrote: I think the posts that are talking about how awesome the Bard Legendary is are really talking about how awesome Bardsong in general is. A 5th Level Bard with a +1 Fae Blowgun Flute can attack every turn and still give the party +2/+4 every turn. Lyre of Lore allows the Lore Check and the same +2/+4 Damage. I think the Legendary needs to be looked at for the additional +2 to hit over Rare level tokens, not for the entire +4/+4 to the party. You can get the equivalent of that +2 to hit for the party from one successful hit from a UR Cestus of Sundering, but that must not be too overpowered because it's not a popular token (although my group uses them every combat).

FYI, fae blow gun flute doesn't give a damage bonus. It's just +2/+2 for a 5th level bard.
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2020 Transmuted Token Images 1 year 6 months ago #141

Endgame wrote:

Mike Steele wrote: I think the posts that are talking about how awesome the Bard Legendary is are really talking about how awesome Bardsong in general is. A 5th Level Bard with a +1 Fae Blowgun Flute can attack every turn and still give the party +2/+4 every turn. Lyre of Lore allows the Lore Check and the same +2/+4 Damage. I think the Legendary needs to be looked at for the additional +2 to hit over Rare level tokens, not for the entire +4/+4 to the party. You can get the equivalent of that +2 to hit for the party from one successful hit from a UR Cestus of Sundering, but that must not be too overpowered because it's not a popular token (although my group uses them every combat).

FYI, fae blow gun flute doesn't give a damage bonus. It's just +2/+2 for a 5th level bard.


Thanks for the correction. :)

The point is still the same, except it compares to basic Bardsong and Rare enabling tokens at +2/+2 and UR enabling tokens at +2/+4. I agree if it was giving an additional +4/+4 that would be super powerful, but it's only giving an additional +2/+0. Successful hits with Cestus of Sundering each give that same equivalent bonus (-6 max).

It's still a very nice class legendary, probably the best of last year, but in my opinion below everything this year.
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2020 Transmuted Token Images 1 year 6 months ago #142

Brad F wrote: The damage wheel on the Legendary Holy Avenger is about the same as the rare claymore. It would seem that a legendary sword would do more base damage? I'd like to see 18-19 as the high mark.

Brad, I understand your desire but the damage for the +3/+5 Avenger is already based upon the +2 Holy Avenger from last year (+3 is 1 point more, +5 is 3 points more).

In reality the Avenger damage is already near the top so Paladins rejoice!

Ed
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2020 Transmuted Token Images 1 year 6 months ago #143

MasterED wrote:

Brad F wrote: The damage wheel on the Legendary Holy Avenger is about the same as the rare claymore. It would seem that a legendary sword would do more base damage? I'd like to see 18-19 as the high mark.

Brad, I understand your desire but the damage for the +3/+5 Avenger is already based upon the +2 Holy Avenger from last year (+3 is 1 point more, +5 is 3 points more).

In reality the Avenger damage is already near the top so Paladins rejoice!

Ed

The +1 Claymore is also a 2 handed weapon. 2H weapons have higher damage wheels - just checkout the +2 Death Cleaver: tokendb.com/token/2-deathcleaver/
Last edit: by Endgame.
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2020 Transmuted Token Images 1 year 6 months ago #144

MasterED wrote: In reality the Avenger damage is already near the top so Paladins rejoice!

Ed


Don't you tell me when to rejoice!

;)

I'll rejoice when they tell me if guard stacks or not. :whistle:

In all seriousness, the damage wheel is probably set, based on last year's token. Average damage is how everyone seems to want to compare weapons, which is fine, although some would prefer a larger spread (Remember Maul of the Titans?).
We *could* add extra damage vs evil creatures though.
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