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TOPIC: 2020 Transmuted Token Images

2020 Transmuted Token Images 1 year 2 months ago #109

OrionW wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Matt Goodman wrote:

jpotter wrote: I love the changes to the monk relic and legendary. They are things that will come into play every dungeon. The addition of the psychic power to the legendary is really neat, and gives the monks access to the higher tier powers a year or two before everyone else. Not game breaking, imho, but just a little extra.

I am totally happy with the toning down of the Paladin relic. It still has something that will be relevant every single dungeon. The new wording makes me think it stacks with amulet of guarding now. I really hope so.

Barb relic seems good. Legendary seems actually insane. Seems like most barbs will be doing something like 150plus damage each first round with it. Is that ok?


I would like to see +1 use of psychic and level 1-7. For the people who have collected the teeth, the current iteration will be moot in what, a year after this prints?

Also, the Barb could use the +2 Death Flail (3x damage on crit), so... yeah, 150 pts of damage is a conservative estimate, imo.


It needs to be cleared up how this works - it's not clear to me that it would.

+2 Death Flail's TDb entry says:

When a barbarian wielding this weapon’s first slide in combat is a natural 20 (not just a critical hit), the damage gets tripled instead of doubled.

I don't believe the effect of Fury gives you a natural 20, it gives you a 20. So you would get your regular 2x crit.

With Monks and Rangers sliding two pucks every combat, Barbarians having a 1/room ability to crit if they slide a called hit is probably just about right for Barbarians to get into the same damage tier as Monks and Rangers - less consistent, more explosive.

I am really happy where this ended up. I hope it sticks.


I would prefer the Legendary have this limited to 1/game and make it explicitly a natural 20. This keeps the player agency over when they get the one big attack, while reducing the total power of the token.


1/game your single hit becomes a crit is not a very good power when there are two classes with 1/round make 2 attacks, and one of them gets to make melee attacks at range.
Last edit: by Matthew Hayward.
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2020 Transmuted Token Images 1 year 2 months ago #110

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Mike Steele wrote:

James J Krot wrote:

Wayne Rhodes wrote:

Mike Steele wrote: Since every class is getting a Class Specific Relic and Legendary, it seems important (to me at least) that they all be pretty balanced in order of power. It seems to me that the power of this year's Legendary tokens far exceeds last year's. To be honest, this year's Relics seem to me to be more powerful than last year's Legendaries. For instance, last year none of the Class Legendary tokens granted bonus combat or spell damage, while this year they all do, except for the Paladin token which more than makes up for it in other areas (as Kirk pointed out all of it's bonuses are essentially slotless since it can be swapped out with another weapon).

Does anyone else agree the Legendaries should all be balanced, even though they are spread out over a number of years? If so - does it seem to anyone else that this year's Legendaries are FAR more powerful than last years? It seems to me that the bonus damage could be stripped completely and they'd still be on par with last year.


I would say last years lute was stronger than many of this years legendary’s. It was SLOTLESS took the Bard song bonus to +4, +4, reroll bad saves, and Bard can do a normal action and free action as though Bard song wasn’t being preformed. It’s strong enough that I considered making one just to lone out to anyone playing with me that wanted to play Bard. I think the Lute is the Most OP legendary so far.


A rosp bard with the right stuff gives 6/6 per combat and the cleric can add another 3 to hit, I don't know if anyone misses with a plus 9 you basically hit most things on a 3


I'm curious, what right stuff let's the Bard give +6 / +6? The base is +2 /+2, and the Legendary adds +2 / +2. If it requires RoSP, that's a pretty small subset of bard runs.


They have a spell that adds +2+2 with a tomb and ring of spell storing they can use it enough to go for every combat.
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2020 Transmuted Token Images 1 year 2 months ago #111

Wayne Rhodes wrote:

Mike Steele wrote: Since every class is getting a Class Specific Relic and Legendary, it seems important (to me at least) that they all be pretty balanced in order of power. It seems to me that the power of this year's Legendary tokens far exceeds last year's. To be honest, this year's Relics seem to me to be more powerful than last year's Legendaries. For instance, last year none of the Class Legendary tokens granted bonus combat or spell damage, while this year they all do, except for the Paladin token which more than makes up for it in other areas (as Kirk pointed out all of it's bonuses are essentially slotless since it can be swapped out with another weapon).

Does anyone else agree the Legendaries should all be balanced, even though they are spread out over a number of years? If so - does it seem to anyone else that this year's Legendaries are FAR more powerful than last years? It seems to me that the bonus damage could be stripped completely and they'd still be on par with last year.


I would say last years lute was stronger than many of this years legendary’s. It was SLOTLESS took the Bard song bonus to +4, +4, reroll bad saves, and Bard can do a normal action and free action as though Bard song wasn’t being preformed. It’s strong enough that I considered making one just to lone out to anyone playing with me that wanted to play Bard. I think the Lute is the Most OP legendary so far.


Mike - I generally agree that the Druid Legendary is the least powerful of these items, or at least the most narrow in it's power application.

I don't agree that in general the current year Legendaries are eclipsing the 2019 legendaries, I think that Widseth's and the Rogue legendary go toe to toe with the 2020s.

I do think the Monk should be toned down.

If I had to rate these all by power level I would probably say:

Bard/Monk
Barbarian/Paladin/Rogue
Ranger
Druid

The Bard power level doesn't bother me so much as it's a "feel good" effect for everyone.

I do hope, however, that future dungeon design might be tilted in a way to make the Druid necklace shine.

For example, in N1 I think the Druid necklace basically amounted to -10 DR or +5 damage in every room (cold effects were extremely prevalent).

I think the Druid necklace is the most subject to the dungeon design in determining its power level.
Last edit: by Matthew Hayward.
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2020 Transmuted Token Images 1 year 2 months ago #112

Philip Goodman wrote: I've seen multiple posts suggesting that monk relic/legendary is too strong right now, which I agree that it's on the strong side. But I don't want to see it get over nerfed.

If the monk relic and legendary are to be toned down might I suggest:

Relic:

  • +3 sacred damage to FoB
  • +1 healing on hit
  • Stun on 19-20
  • FoB at range

Legendary
  • +5 sacred damage to FoB
  • +2 healing on hit
  • Stun on 17-20
  • FoB at range
  • Grants PT-7 psychic power

Hp on hit is my favorite defensive perk, but 2/4 DEX, AC, or CON could also be subbed in.

I also like the +1 psychic power more, but would take either.


That seems much better to me than the current iteration. I might make the legendary stun range 18-20.
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2020 Transmuted Token Images 1 year 2 months ago #113

I'm liking the proposed Fury power for the Barbarian Relic/Legendary, and don't think it is over-powered at 1/game for the Relic and 1/room for the Legendary. Although the odds go up a lot, it doesn't guarantee double damage at least once in every room. Any of the following could happen:

- Slide misses (hits the backboard, totally short/on a low number not high enough to hit)
- Puck is knocked off a hit by another player
- Monster is immune to crits (unless player gave up Barbarian UR bracers/Charm Bracelets/Arcane Bracelets for Guided Strike)
- Player accidentally slides a 20 anyway, thereby "wasting" the Fury and getting the damage/effect they would have gotten without the class-specific necklace.

Yes, the necklace will offer a big boost 1/game or 1/room when landing on something other than a 20 is a hit and the monster is subject to critical attacks. And there is a potential complication of treble damage with the +2 Death Flail. (Although, how many people will give up a +3 or +5 Deathcleaver for the Flail?) It feels appropriately balanced to me at the Relic/Legendary level.

Of course, my main character is a Barbarian, so I would say that.

ETA: It's been pointed out that the +2 Death Flail requires a natural 20 to trigger the 3x damage effect, so the Fury power won't increase the odds of that happening.
Last edit: by BeLinda Mathie.
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2020 Transmuted Token Images 1 year 2 months ago #114

Cross posted from the UR thread where I mis-posted it:

This table shows the odds of a Monk stunning a monster with their 16-20 stun range in the first or second round of combat, assuming they are X% likely to hit on each puck:
Odds of      Odds of 
Scoring 16+  Stunning in 
Per Puck     Round 1 or 2
10%          34%
20%          59%
30%          76%
40%          87%
50%          94%
60%          97%
70%          99%
80%          99.8%
90%          99.99%

It seems to me that we're going to see a stunned monster in round 1 or 2 at least two thirds of the time with this token.

To stun the monster 1/2 the time on round 1 or 2 you'd want the odds of a single puck stunning the monster to be around 16%.

I might shrink this range to 18-20 (but I don't know how often the stun is desired to be triggered, or how common non-stunnable monsters are).
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2020 Transmuted Token Images 1 year 2 months ago #115

James J Krot wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

James J Krot wrote:

Wayne Rhodes wrote:

Mike Steele wrote: Since every class is getting a Class Specific Relic and Legendary, it seems important (to me at least) that they all be pretty balanced in order of power. It seems to me that the power of this year's Legendary tokens far exceeds last year's. To be honest, this year's Relics seem to me to be more powerful than last year's Legendaries. For instance, last year none of the Class Legendary tokens granted bonus combat or spell damage, while this year they all do, except for the Paladin token which more than makes up for it in other areas (as Kirk pointed out all of it's bonuses are essentially slotless since it can be swapped out with another weapon).

Does anyone else agree the Legendaries should all be balanced, even though they are spread out over a number of years? If so - does it seem to anyone else that this year's Legendaries are FAR more powerful than last years? It seems to me that the bonus damage could be stripped completely and they'd still be on par with last year.


I would say last years lute was stronger than many of this years legendary’s. It was SLOTLESS took the Bard song bonus to +4, +4, reroll bad saves, and Bard can do a normal action and free action as though Bard song wasn’t being preformed. It’s strong enough that I considered making one just to lone out to anyone playing with me that wanted to play Bard. I think the Lute is the Most OP legendary so far.


A rosp bard with the right stuff gives 6/6 per combat and the cleric can add another 3 to hit, I don't know if anyone misses with a plus 9 you basically hit most things on a 3


I'm curious, what right stuff let's the Bard give +6 / +6? The base is +2 /+2, and the Legendary adds +2 / +2. If it requires RoSP, that's a pretty small subset of bard runs.


They have a spell that adds +2+2 with a tomb and ring of spell storing they can use it enough to go for every combat.


That seems like a stretch, it's so corner case since each RoSP only gets one voucher per year and most are probably not used by Bards. Regardless, it doesn't change the fact that the Bard Legendary isn't that powerful, it only adds +2 to hit and no bonus damage to the regular Bard Song. True, it does other stuff, but I think it is still well below the Legendaries this year, and the other two from last year are even further below this year.
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2020 Transmuted Token Images 1 year 2 months ago #116

The damage wheel on the Legendary Holy Avenger is about the same as the rare claymore. It would seem that a legendary sword would do more base damage? I'd like to see 18-19 as the high mark.
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Last edit: by Brad F.
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2020 Transmuted Token Images 1 year 2 months ago #117

Brad F wrote: The damage wheel on the Legendary Holy Avenger is about the same as the rare claymore. It would seem that a legendary sword would do more base damage? I'd like to see 18-19 as the high mark.


I think that it’s on purpose not to completely obsolete the other legendaries that do nothing but attack. The paladin legendary has so many extras we don’t need to increase the damage wheel as well.
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2020 Transmuted Token Images 1 year 2 months ago #118

Brad F wrote: The damage wheel on the Legendary Holy Avenger is about the same as the rare claymore. It would seem that a legendary sword would do more base damage? I'd like to see 18-19 as the high mark.


That would be because Claymore is 2h, while the Avenger is 1h.

Currently Avenger is only slightly worse than the best 1h weapon printed, as far as damage goes.
Last edit: by jpotter.
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2020 Transmuted Token Images 1 year 2 months ago #119

Mike Steele wrote:
That seems like a stretch, it's so corner case since each RoSP only gets one voucher per year and most are probably not used by Bards. Regardless, it doesn't change the fact that the Bard Legendary isn't that powerful, it only adds +2 to hit and no bonus damage to the regular Bard Song. True, it does other stuff, but I think it is still well below the Legendaries this year, and the other two from last year are even further below this year.


I don't know about that. Adding plus 2 to hit to every other member of the party is a big deal. It likely results in quite a few misses turning into hits, which may end up being much more damage than any other legendary.

Let's just do some very rough math. I'll be very conservative here.

5 melee characters, 3 combats, 3 rounds per combat. 45 attacks.
Let's say the bard legendary accounts for one extra hit per combat (I think it might be more, but we'll be conservative)
So 3 extra hits, and let's say in a nightmare party people are doing 30ish damage per hit. 90 extra damage just from that part. Not to mention all the ridiculous damage added by the other part of the legendary.


Monk legendary. 9 attacks per game. Assuming valhalla necklace otherwise, the legendary is an increase of 12 per attack (6 each puck). Assuming they hit every single attack, they get an increase of 108. Seems not too out of line.

Barb legendary. 9 attacks per game. Assuming Valhalla necklace otherwise, the legendary is an increase of 14 per attack. Again assuming they hit every single attack, they get an increase of 126. Again as the "damage is all they get" class, doesn't seem out of line.


I don't know. Those numbers don't seem too crazy to me. And I'm apt to believe that the extra to hit on the bard legendary actually accounts for more than I am giving it conservative credit for.
Last edit: by jpotter.
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2020 Transmuted Token Images 1 year 2 months ago #120

Mike Steele wrote:

James J Krot wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

James J Krot wrote:

Wayne Rhodes wrote:

Mike Steele wrote: Since every class is getting a Class Specific Relic and Legendary, it seems important (to me at least) that they all be pretty balanced in order of power. It seems to me that the power of this year's Legendary tokens far exceeds last year's. To be honest, this year's Relics seem to me to be more powerful than last year's Legendaries. For instance, last year none of the Class Legendary tokens granted bonus combat or spell damage, while this year they all do, except for the Paladin token which more than makes up for it in other areas (as Kirk pointed out all of it's bonuses are essentially slotless since it can be swapped out with another weapon).

Does anyone else agree the Legendaries should all be balanced, even though they are spread out over a number of years? If so - does it seem to anyone else that this year's Legendaries are FAR more powerful than last years? It seems to me that the bonus damage could be stripped completely and they'd still be on par with last year.


I would say last years lute was stronger than many of this years legendary’s. It was SLOTLESS took the Bard song bonus to +4, +4, reroll bad saves, and Bard can do a normal action and free action as though Bard song wasn’t being preformed. It’s strong enough that I considered making one just to lone out to anyone playing with me that wanted to play Bard. I think the Lute is the Most OP legendary so far.


A rosp bard with the right stuff gives 6/6 per combat and the cleric can add another 3 to hit, I don't know if anyone misses with a plus 9 you basically hit most things on a 3


I'm curious, what right stuff let's the Bard give +6 / +6? The base is +2 /+2, and the Legendary adds +2 / +2. If it requires RoSP, that's a pretty small subset of bard runs.


They have a spell that adds +2+2 with a tomb and ring of spell storing they can use it enough to go for every combat.


That seems like a stretch, it's so corner case since each RoSP only gets one voucher per year and most are probably not used by Bards. Regardless, it doesn't change the fact that the Bard Legendary isn't that powerful, it only adds +2 to hit and no bonus damage to the regular Bard Song. True, it does other stuff, but I think it is still well below the Legendaries this year, and the other two from last year are even further below this year.

It adds 2 damage and 2 to hit, yes there is another lute that will give just the +2 damage and some of the other benefits, but the lute is slotless and no drawbacks. It is amazing. I have no problem with it being in print and it does way more then the Holy avenger because it affects the hole party not just the paladin and to lesser against guarded player. The lute might be the best legendary in the game for in game use (CoA doesn’t effect in game and would be a totally different conversation).
I only keep bringing up the lute because some people want to say the Holy avenger is broken because of being slotless. As a 1 to 1 comparison the lute is much better. I am for locking the Holy avenger into the melee hand slot if you are going to use it just to make it slotted to solve this argument as well.
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