TOPIC: 2020 Ultra Rare Token Images

jpotter wrote:

Endgame wrote: Still think the -1 con should be put on the arcane items, and then add the +3 con should be part of the set bonus.

Let's starting making a cost to slot expanders. In this case either pay a con penalty or lock in 3 slots for the set (not much of a penalty considering it has 2 expanders and an awesome belt)

Do you not feel that putting a cost on slot expanders now is unfair to newer players? Essentially the older players got all of their slot expanders w/out a negative side-effect, but we aren't giving that option to the new players? I totally get what you are saying, but I feel negatives on the tokens now would more adversely affect new players. Old players will just stick with their out of print tokens that didn't hurt them.

I'm thinking on the new slot expanders like the charm earcuff or IS bracers. That is new expansion to everyone. When we Reprint the existing expanders, don't change them.

Endgame wrote:

jpotter wrote:

Endgame wrote: Still think the -1 con should be put on the arcane items, and then add the +3 con should be part of the set bonus.

Let's starting making a cost to slot expanders. In this case either pay a con penalty or lock in 3 slots for the set (not much of a penalty considering it has 2 expanders and an awesome belt)

Do you not feel that putting a cost on slot expanders now is unfair to newer players? Essentially the older players got all of their slot expanders w/out a negative side-effect, but we aren't giving that option to the new players? I totally get what you are saying, but I feel negatives on the tokens now would more adversely affect new players. Old players will just stick with their out of print tokens that didn't hurt them.

I'm thinking on the new slot expanders like the charm earcuff or IS bracers. That is new expansion to everyone. When we Reprint the existing expanders, don't change them.

And that makes sense. I just feel bad making them wait years to get those reprints. They could have some nice slot expanders now. I just worry if they have a negative attached to them now, many new players will simply look at that and compare them to the oop ones their older counterparts are wearing. The old players won't bother with the new ones depending upon the negatives, and we still have a 'second class TD citizen' kind of thing going on. Then a few years down the line when they reprint the old ones, the people who bought the ones with the negative effects are like "What the heck? Mine have negatives! Why do the new players always get all the good stuff?!"

Your argument makes total sense, and if we were restarting from day one I would be all about it. But as is, we already have slot expanders in the wild with no drawbacks.

Endgame wrote:

jpotter wrote:

Endgame wrote: Still think the -1 con should be put on the arcane items, and then add the +3 con should be part of the set bonus.

Let's starting making a cost to slot expanders. In this case either pay a con penalty or lock in 3 slots for the set (not much of a penalty considering it has 2 expanders and an awesome belt)

Do you not feel that putting a cost on slot expanders now is unfair to newer players? Essentially the older players got all of their slot expanders w/out a negative side-effect, but we aren't giving that option to the new players? I totally get what you are saying, but I feel negatives on the tokens now would more adversely affect new players. Old players will just stick with their out of print tokens that didn't hurt them.

I'm thinking on the new slot expanders like the charm earcuff or IS bracers. That is new expansion to everyone. When we Reprint the existing expanders, don't change them.

The problem is in a couple of years it will be argued that theses were reprints.

It normally goes something like, we should reprint HOP so new players can have access.
That's a great idea but could we make it a ring so its more or less the same but slightly different.
We should reprint HOP and ROR so new players can have access but this time lets make it a charm...
P.S. I know I'm picking a touche example but I still think its the most descriptive.

So long as they stack they are not reprints functional or otherwise IMO. Same is true if they conflict on slots and do something similar but different.

jpotter wrote:

Endgame wrote:

jpotter wrote:

Endgame wrote: Still think the -1 con should be put on the arcane items, and then add the +3 con should be part of the set bonus.

Let's starting making a cost to slot expanders. In this case either pay a con penalty or lock in 3 slots for the set (not much of a penalty considering it has 2 expanders and an awesome belt)

Do you not feel that putting a cost on slot expanders now is unfair to newer players? Essentially the older players got all of their slot expanders w/out a negative side-effect, but we aren't giving that option to the new players? I totally get what you are saying, but I feel negatives on the tokens now would more adversely affect new players. Old players will just stick with their out of print tokens that didn't hurt them.

I'm thinking on the new slot expanders like the charm earcuff or IS bracers. That is new expansion to everyone. When we Reprint the existing expanders, don't change them.

And that makes sense. I just feel bad making them wait years to get those reprints. They could have some nice slot expanders now. I just worry if they have a negative attached to them now, many new players will simply look at that and compare them to the oop ones their older counterparts are wearing. The old players won't bother with the new ones depending upon the negatives, and we still have a 'second class TD citizen' kind of thing going on. Then a few years down the line when they reprint the old ones, the people who bought the ones with the negative effects are like "What the heck? Mine have negatives! Why do the new players always get all the good stuff?!"

Your argument makes total sense, and if we were restarting from day one I would be all about it. But as is, we already have slot expanders in the wild with no drawbacks.

I'm not following.

New Player looks in token dB for ear slot charm expander. They find only one, which has a -1 con penalty, which is removed if they wear the set.

New player looks for ioun expander in ear slot. Finds orbits. Given that expanders are being reprinted every year, can make the decision to wait, or buy one from secondary market.

Arnold wrote:

Boilerplate wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Xavon wrote:

WaterSomePlants wrote: Hmmm.... Can the Lenses of Vital Insight be swapped for Lenses of Seer Sight?

I don't see why this keeps coming up. I would not expect to be able to swap my old Woody +1 Plate Mail be swapped for Lucky Plate Armor.

Because of TD's prior generosity in allowing 2 URs that I can think of to be traded in when they were eclipsed.

Yep. And I think this is a similar situation. If not a straight swap, at least allow spending a few trade goods or dex item or something to do an upgrade.

I don't agree with most of Xavon's ideas, but I'm with him 100% on this one. This is ridiculous.

LoDS and CoS were nerfed for game balancing. Those tokens were changed and retroactively made null in their original printing.

The same thing happened with Druid's Wild Vestments.

We have clear parameters for when trade-ins were previously offered. These tokens were straight-up errata'd.

Anyone with Lenses of Vital Insight still has a Lenses of Vital Insight. They can still equip them and still utilize the token exactly as printed on the text.

If you want the +2 dex, sell off your Vital Insight to a red player and put the funds towards a 2020 PYP.

There is a precedent for trading in Gloves of Dexterity for Gloves of the Cutpurse though. That wasnt even as clear cut as this case, where one was immediately better than another. In that case, a player with gloves that have +2 Dex could exchange them for gloves that gave +5 Dex/-2 Str.

These gloves were at least 7 years old at the time this decision was made.

I dont think there should be a trade in, but those arguing for unfortunately have a case to make.

Endgame wrote: I'm not following.

New Player looks in token dB for ear slot charm expander. They find only one, which has a -1 con penalty, which is removed if they wear the set.

New player looks for ioun expander in ear slot. Finds orbits. Given that expanders are being reprinted every year, can make the decision to wait, or buy one from secondary market.

I don't think the search will go like that. I think the search will go:

Charm expanders:
Ok there is this one that gives 2 extra charms from x years ago in the bracer slot...it's 160 dollars everywhere

Oh great there is this one that's in print for the ear slot that also gives 2 extra charms. Wait...why does it have a drawback when the old expander didn't?

But maybe all of the new players won't compare the new stuff to the old stuff

jpotter wrote:

Endgame wrote: I'm not following.

New Player looks in token dB for ear slot charm expander. They find only one, which has a -1 con penalty, which is removed if they wear the set.

New player looks for ioun expander in ear slot. Finds orbits. Given that expanders are being reprinted every year, can make the decision to wait, or buy one from secondary market.

I don't think the search will go like that. I think the search will go:

Charm expanders:
Ok there is this one that gives 2 extra charms from x years ago in the bracer slot...it's 160 dollars everywhere

Oh great there is this one that's in print for the ear slot that also gives 2 extra charms. Wait...why does it have a drawback when the old expander didn't?

But maybe all of the new players won't compare the new stuff to the old stuff

Different slot , Different effect, which has lots of precedent.

Otherwise, I can say, why does this old Redoubt plate have 10 ac, when this new helm only has 3ac...

You don't have to twist my arm though if your trying to convince me to make the charm earcuff a orbits reprint.

Endgame wrote: Different slot , Different effect, which has lots of precedent.

Otherwise, I can say, why does this old Redoubt plate have 10 ac, when this new helm only has 3ac...

You don't have to twist my arm though if your trying to convince me to make the charm earcuff a orbits reprint.

I completely agree with you that new slots = new effects. I just worry the new players won't see it that way with the slot expanders, and will simply see:

The older player can expand their slots for free

I have to make decisions about drawbacks

jpotter wrote:

Endgame wrote: Different slot , Different effect, which has lots of precedent.

Otherwise, I can say, why does this old Redoubt plate have 10 ac, when this new helm only has 3ac...

You don't have to twist my arm though if your trying to convince me to make the charm earcuff a orbits reprint.

I completely agree with you that new slots = new effects. I just worry the new players won't see it that way with the slot expanders, and will simply see:

The older player can expand their slots for free

I have to make decisions about drawbacks

Which is why some upper limit might make sense. Then it is a true catch up mechanism for new players while offering flexibility for vets.

I’d rather just reprint Orbits if we just want everyone to catch up.

I like the arcane set how it is except for the super weak set bonus. But I gave my thoughts on that in other threads.

I really like the charm of glory, but maybe to strong with all the charm expanders. If printed as is I would definitely get one.

A thought to nerf it some (if someone else as already posted this idea I missed it)

May equip up to 3 rings if no charm expanders used.

What if the Rod of the Meek was:

+3 Rod of the Meek
5-6-7-8-10-12
Max +5 to hit and +5 to damage when slid
One-hand, usable by all

Rather than worry about whether any one can use it (causing Coaches, and DMs, and Players headaches and confusion), just let them use it and cap the bonus they get at the time of the slide. That way it is just a problem for the DMs, and hopefully less of one.

That makes it slide into two distinct positions, as the primary weapon for a lucky (or spending) newer player. Or as a backup weapon against monsters that need +3 or better to hurt for red and purple level players.