TOPIC: 2020 Transmuted Beta Images

I also feel the monk tokens need adjustment and like the idea of making the class fun and effective rather than just focusing on damage. I agree with many that chaining stuns would remove a lot of fun from combat so limiting the number of stuns per combat is a good idea. In general, I like a lot of the ideas you've posted regarding changes to the monk tokens by both Xavon and Philip ( truedungeon.com/forum?view=topic&defaultmenu=141&catid=615&id=249938&start=84#345314 ).

Giving monks the ability to avoid stun immunities and other immunities would future proof the token and always allow monks to contribute to the combat.


As for mechanics and fun flavor perhaps we could consider monk stances for both Elder Drake and Spirit Drake. i.e.

Elder Drake (relic):

1/game for a room grant the monk "Elder dragon form/stance" for 1 room.

• flying
• 5 physical damage reduction
• a melee attack that splashes in the flavor of the dragon he's emulating

Spirit Drake (legendary):

1/game for a room grant the monk "Spirit dragon form/stance" for 1 room.

• flying
• 10 physical damage reduction
• a melee attack that splashes for more
• maybe the ability to bypass some amount of AC i.e. punching the target's very spirit

Something like this paired with some of the immunity bypasses and a modest increase in damage would hopefully make the token valuable enough and give the monk a truely kung fu ability, fun but limited.

Xavon wrote:

Fiddy wrote:

Xavon wrote: Please indulge me to talk about the Monk for a moment.

I've seen a lot of claims that the Monk is all about damage. I don't think that is true. The Monk is all about nifty little attack tricks. Sliding twice, stunning, Dragon Fist to get around DR. Plus all of the defensive abilities that so rarely come into play. Unlike FIghter they don't get an extra bonus to hit. Unlike Barb, they don't get bonus damage. The idea that a monk is all about damage has grown out of the large amounts of tokens that enhance damage, and that for the Monks, they are twice as effective.

I'd like to get away from that, and get back to the Monk having a bag of tricks rather than just stacking on damage numbers.

I am also opposed to auto-kill, and of the belief that having two different Legendaries that have it is not good. It makes both less special, and increases the chance of it triggering.

My suggestion therefore is this:

Necklace of the Elder Drake
FoB ignores: Incorporeal, Invisibility, Immune to Stun, and Immune to Critical

Necklace of the Spirit Drake
FoB ignores: Incorporeal, Invisibility, Immune to Stun, Immune to Critical, and DR
Stun Fist and Critical on 18 & 20
FoB melee against range targets (1/combat)

First, about the names, I just think Elder sounds like 'power gained with age and experience', while Spirit sounds like 'transcended mortal limits'. So I think we should switch them.

Now, as for the actual powers; We have ways around incorporeal, invisible, and immune to critical, but the first two are fairly situational. There is nothing (at least that I can find in the DB) that gets around Immune to Stun. So rather that give the Monk more damage, I'm saying have the Relic get around a number of things that limit the monk's ability. And have the Legendary expand that even further, adding that they get around DR. Crit and Stun on 18 and 20 is similar to the normal expanders, but again, is a bit of a trick. It also opens up the option to get the missing '19' through other tokens, (Ring of Stunning fist).

As for the capstone "GoFF 1/combat"; a lot of us Monks have been asking for the power, just flat out. It is a fairly iconic monk ability (Ki blasts, wind blades, stretching arms), and our only access has been OOP for 5 years, in fairly high demand, yet searching the auction and sales forums doesn't show any available. Personally, I would still like to see this as a fully available power, but I think once per combat would be a good compromise; have the power once if needed, but doesn't fully eclipse the original (not that the current version is concerned about eclipsing the aforementioned ring or last year's common Monk belt).

I could get behind immune to stun and immune to crit. I dislike giving them immune to invisible and ethereal, I'll admit partly because I planned to suggest those for the Fighter tokens next year. The core feature of Fighter seems to be the ability to hit more often (bonus to hit and their reslide) so giving them the ability to ignore invisibility (like Blindfight in D&D) or ignore Ethereal (apply Ghosttouch to their weapons) feels like some of the few things to give Fighters other than straight to-hit bonuses.

Then what about:
Necklace of the Elder Drake
FoB ignores Immune to Stun, and Immune to Critical
FoB melee against range targets (1/combat)

Necklace of the Spirit Drake
FoB ignores Immune to Stun, Immune to Critical, and DR
Stun Fist and Critical on 18 & 20
FoB melee against range targets

I like these suggestions more than the current iteration.

The Rogue legendary originally had sneak attack at range and bypass crit immunity. It was changed because it undermines tokens that already do that. Was originally hoping that the effects would be new and not a grab bag of previously available effects.

I also feel that if TPTB want to make stun immunity a thing, let them and do not bypass it. Having tokens that bypass it means that we would probably see more of it which I do not want.

On the ring of stamina

As discussed in another thread, the last several 4* transmutes have been Fantastic

The blessed tempest gloves are competitive with / equal to gloves of glory with a relic ring

Belt of ogre mage power is equal to an older UR and the same total attribute bonus as the belt of stone giant str.

Belt of blessed constitution seems very popular, even if it isn't a token for me.

All that said, I think the current ring does not live up to those tokens.

+5 fort and +1 con is more that kind of level, but I can't really tell if that is flat out too good.

Thoughts at +5 fort, +1 con?

Jinto wrote: I also feel the monk tokens need adjustment and like the idea of making the class fun and effective rather than just focusing on damage. I agree with many that chaining stuns would remove a lot of fun from combat so limiting the number of stuns per combat is a good idea. In general, I like a lot of the ideas you've posted regarding changes to the monk tokens by both Xavon and Philip ( truedungeon.com/forum?view=topic&defaultmenu=141&catid=615&id=249938&start=84#345314 ).

Giving monks the ability to avoid stun immunities and other immunities would future proof the token and always allow monks to contribute to the combat.


As for mechanics and fun flavor perhaps we could consider monk stances for both Elder Drake and Spirit Drake. i.e.

Elder Drake (relic):

1/game for a room grant the monk "Elder dragon form/stance" for 1 room.

• flying
• 5 physical damage reduction
• a melee attack that splashes in the flavor of the dragon he's emulating

Spirit Drake (legendary):

1/game for a room grant the monk "Spirit dragon form/stance" for 1 room.

• flying
• 10 physical damage reduction
• a melee attack that splashes for more
• maybe the ability to bypass some amount of AC i.e. punching the target's very spirit

Something like this paired with some of the immunity bypasses and a modest increase in damage would hopefully make the token valuable enough and give the monk a truely kung fu ability, fun but limited.

OMG this would be amazing.

Please make it happen!

Endgame wrote: On the ring of stamina

As discussed in another thread, the last several 4* transmutes have been Fantastic

The blessed tempest gloves are competitive with / equal to gloves of glory with a relic ring

Belt of ogre mage power is equal to an older UR and the same total attribute bonus as the belt of stone giant str.

Belt of blessed constitution seems very popular, even if it isn't a token for me.

All that said, I think the current ring does not live up to those tokens.

+5 fort and +1 con is more that kind of level, but I can't really tell if that is flat out too good.

Thoughts at +5 fort, +1 con?

+4 Fort and +2 Con would work for me, it's taking the base Ring of Fortitude and adding +2 Con, which converts to +1 Fort saves and 4/5 HP. I like that a lot more than +3 Con for a Ring of Fortitude Transmute. My preference would still be just +6 Fort saves though.

Philip Goodman wrote:

Xavon wrote:

Fiddy wrote:

Xavon wrote: Please indulge me to talk about the Monk for a moment.

I've seen a lot of claims that the Monk is all about damage. I don't think that is true. The Monk is all about nifty little attack tricks. Sliding twice, stunning, Dragon Fist to get around DR. Plus all of the defensive abilities that so rarely come into play. Unlike FIghter they don't get an extra bonus to hit. Unlike Barb, they don't get bonus damage. The idea that a monk is all about damage has grown out of the large amounts of tokens that enhance damage, and that for the Monks, they are twice as effective.

I'd like to get away from that, and get back to the Monk having a bag of tricks rather than just stacking on damage numbers.

I am also opposed to auto-kill, and of the belief that having two different Legendaries that have it is not good. It makes both less special, and increases the chance of it triggering.

My suggestion therefore is this:

Necklace of the Elder Drake
FoB ignores: Incorporeal, Invisibility, Immune to Stun, and Immune to Critical

Necklace of the Spirit Drake
FoB ignores: Incorporeal, Invisibility, Immune to Stun, Immune to Critical, and DR
Stun Fist and Critical on 18 & 20
FoB melee against range targets (1/combat)

First, about the names, I just think Elder sounds like 'power gained with age and experience', while Spirit sounds like 'transcended mortal limits'. So I think we should switch them.

Now, as for the actual powers; We have ways around incorporeal, invisible, and immune to critical, but the first two are fairly situational. There is nothing (at least that I can find in the DB) that gets around Immune to Stun. So rather that give the Monk more damage, I'm saying have the Relic get around a number of things that limit the monk's ability. And have the Legendary expand that even further, adding that they get around DR. Crit and Stun on 18 and 20 is similar to the normal expanders, but again, is a bit of a trick. It also opens up the option to get the missing '19' through other tokens, (Ring of Stunning fist).

As for the capstone "GoFF 1/combat"; a lot of us Monks have been asking for the power, just flat out. It is a fairly iconic monk ability (Ki blasts, wind blades, stretching arms), and our only access has been OOP for 5 years, in fairly high demand, yet searching the auction and sales forums doesn't show any available. Personally, I would still like to see this as a fully available power, but I think once per combat would be a good compromise; have the power once if needed, but doesn't fully eclipse the original (not that the current version is concerned about eclipsing the aforementioned ring or last year's common Monk belt).

I could get behind immune to stun and immune to crit. I dislike giving them immune to invisible and ethereal, I'll admit partly because I planned to suggest those for the Fighter tokens next year. The core feature of Fighter seems to be the ability to hit more often (bonus to hit and their reslide) so giving them the ability to ignore invisibility (like Blindfight in D&D) or ignore Ethereal (apply Ghosttouch to their weapons) feels like some of the few things to give Fighters other than straight to-hit bonuses.

Then what about:
Necklace of the Elder Drake
FoB ignores Immune to Stun, and Immune to Critical
FoB melee against range targets (1/combat)

Necklace of the Spirit Drake
FoB ignores Immune to Stun, Immune to Critical, and DR
Stun Fist and Critical on 18 & 20
FoB melee against range targets

I like these suggestions more than the current iteration.

The Rogue legendary originally had sneak attack at range and bypass crit immunity. It was changed because it undermines tokens that already do that. Was originally hoping that the effects would be new and not a grab bag of previously available effects.

I also feel that if TPTB want to make stun immunity a thing, let them and do not bypass it. Having tokens that bypass it means that we would probably see more of it which I do not want.

There are already plenty of monster that are immune to stun. All Plants and Constructs. Most Undead and many outsiders. There are already multiple ways around Immune to Crit and Immune to Sneak Attack.

And frankly, I think having multiple Stun Fists per round is more likely to inspire more 'immune to stun'. than bypassing said immunity. If it can happen a lot, they will want to block it. If it can't be blocked, why bother including the block?

Endgame wrote: On the ring of stamina

As discussed in another thread, the last several 4* transmutes have been Fantastic

The blessed tempest gloves are competitive with / equal to gloves of glory with a relic ring

Belt of ogre mage power is equal to an older UR and the same total attribute bonus as the belt of stone giant str.

Belt of blessed constitution seems very popular, even if it isn't a token for me.

All that said, I think the current ring does not live up to those tokens.

+5 fort and +1 con is more that kind of level, but I can't really tell if that is flat out too good.

Thoughts at +5 fort, +1 con?

This seems maybe to high

I would think 3 fort and 1 con

Jinto wrote: I also feel the monk tokens need adjustment and like the idea of making the class fun and effective rather than just focusing on damage. I agree with many that chaining stuns would remove a lot of fun from combat so limiting the number of stuns per combat is a good idea. In general, I like a lot of the ideas you've posted regarding changes to the monk tokens by both Xavon and Philip ( truedungeon.com/forum?view=topic&defaultmenu=141&catid=615&id=249938&start=84#345314 ).

Giving monks the ability to avoid stun immunities and other immunities would future proof the token and always allow monks to contribute to the combat.


As for mechanics and fun flavor perhaps we could consider monk stances for both Elder Drake and Spirit Drake. i.e.

Elder Drake (relic):

1/game for a room grant the monk "Elder dragon form/stance" for 1 room.

• flying
• 5 physical damage reduction
• a melee attack that splashes in the flavor of the dragon he's emulating

Spirit Drake (legendary):

1/game for a room grant the monk "Spirit dragon form/stance" for 1 room.

• flying
• 10 physical damage reduction
• a melee attack that splashes for more
• maybe the ability to bypass some amount of AC i.e. punching the target's very spirit

Something like this paired with some of the immunity bypasses and a modest increase in damage would hopefully make the token valuable enough and give the monk a truely kung fu ability, fun but limited.

I think DR overlaps with the Barb. And what do you mean by splash? Do you mean an actual AoE effect? Or do you mean a small damage bonus while in the stance?

Xavon wrote: And frankly, I think having multiple Stun Fists per round is more likely to inspire more 'immune to stun'. than bypassing said immunity. If it can happen a lot, they will want to block it. If it can't be blocked, why bother including the block?

You're probably right on that. I think I would generally prefer a separate token that bypassed stun immunity than sticking it on the relic/legendary. I feel like it uses up too much token "budget" when we could see a cooler, more consistent effect on the relic/legendary instead.

I am more jazzed about Jinto's dragon stance/form suggestion.

Philip Goodman wrote:

Xavon wrote: And frankly, I think having multiple Stun Fists per round is more likely to inspire more 'immune to stun'. than bypassing said immunity. If it can happen a lot, they will want to block it. If it can't be blocked, why bother including the block?

You're probably right on that. I think I would generally prefer a separate token that bypassed stun immunity than sticking it on the relic/legendary. I feel like it uses up too much token "budget" when we could see a cooler, more consistent effect on the relic/legendary instead.

Nothing says it can't appear on a Rare or UR in the future. Like the Sneaky amulet, but in reverse.

Philip Goodman wrote: I am more jazzed about Jinto's dragon stance/form suggestion.

It is interesting. But it is vague and not in TD terms, which make it hard to evaluate. And honestly? I don't think are going to be that happy if the entire power of the Relic/Legendary is once per game.

I like these Barbarian tokens much better. I would like to see DR back on them. It doesn't make a huge amount of difference from a power standpoint because of the usually large number of hp a barbarian has, but I thought it was fun and thematic.

Xavon wrote:

Jinto wrote: I also feel the monk tokens need adjustment and like the idea of making the class fun and effective rather than just focusing on damage. I agree with many that chaining stuns would remove a lot of fun from combat so limiting the number of stuns per combat is a good idea. In general, I like a lot of the ideas you've posted regarding changes to the monk tokens by both Xavon and Philip ( truedungeon.com/forum?view=topic&defaultmenu=141&catid=615&id=249938&start=84#345314 ).

Giving monks the ability to avoid stun immunities and other immunities would future proof the token and always allow monks to contribute to the combat.


As for mechanics and fun flavor perhaps we could consider monk stances for both Elder Drake and Spirit Drake. i.e.

Elder Drake (relic):

1/game for a room grant the monk "Elder dragon form/stance" for 1 room.

• flying
• 5 physical damage reduction
• a melee attack that splashes in the flavor of the dragon he's emulating

Spirit Drake (legendary):

1/game for a room grant the monk "Spirit dragon form/stance" for 1 room.

• flying
• 10 physical damage reduction
• a melee attack that splashes for more
• maybe the ability to bypass some amount of AC i.e. punching the target's very spirit

Something like this paired with some of the immunity bypasses and a modest increase in damage would hopefully make the token valuable enough and give the monk a truely kung fu ability, fun but limited.

I think DR overlaps with the Barb. And what do you mean by splash? Do you mean an actual AoE effect? Or do you mean a small damage bonus while in the stance?

Barbs get DR vs everything except eldritch and push. Druid's relic/legendary polymorph gives DR vs an element type. I think it makes sense for a (spirit) dragon stance/form to imbue some some physical DR, and I do not think it treads too much on Barb territory.

I like it, but I could see the numbers toned down a bit if necessary.

If it's not too much, it makes sense for the spirit dragon, or whatever the legendary will be, to still get +1 physic power.