TOPIC: 2020 Transmuted Beta Images

James J Krot wrote:

Kirk Bauer wrote:

Wayne Rhodes wrote: Really I wish people would stop bringing up the autokill and the sacrifice like they matter, the are going to come into effect almost never and there would be no negative reaction if they were stripped from the token.

I certainly have no problem with those features. My proposal was to remove the saves bonus.

I would rather paladin gets +5 retribution damage it makes it seem more paladin and removes the saves.

I would like to see some of the saves kept at least. But I’m ok with a little divine retribution on the token

Steven wrote: I like the new ranger transmute and I think that the ammo buff is on par with flavor but would like to see only one ability use a consumable

Also I agree that the ring of stam needs just a little more at the 4 star stage. The ring of the dire boar gives +3 to hp which is only 1-2 less and 1 fort save less and is fairly inexpensive to make

I'd also like to see the Ring of Stamina give +3 CON. I feel like that would help people who have recently started getting into filling out their builds up to a hardcore level more easily.

James Bennett wrote:

Steven wrote: I like the new ranger transmute and I think that the ammo buff is on par with flavor but would like to see only one ability use a consumable

Also I agree that the ring of stam needs just a little more at the 4 star stage. The ring of the dire boar gives +3 to hp which is only 1-2 less and 1 fort save less and is fairly inexpensive to make

I'd also like to see the Ring of Stamina give +3 CON. I feel like that would help people who have recently started getting into filling out their builds up to a hardcore level more easily.

I actually REALLY preferred the original version of +6 to Fortitude Saves, with a plan for the Rings of Iron Will and Reflexes to get the same treatment.

Mike Steele wrote:

James Bennett wrote:

Steven wrote: I like the new ranger transmute and I think that the ammo buff is on par with flavor but would like to see only one ability use a consumable

Also I agree that the ring of stam needs just a little more at the 4 star stage. The ring of the dire boar gives +3 to hp which is only 1-2 less and 1 fort save less and is fairly inexpensive to make

I'd also like to see the Ring of Stamina give +3 CON. I feel like that would help people who have recently started getting into filling out their builds up to a hardcore level more easily.

I actually REALLY preferred the original version of +6 to Fortitude Saves, with a plan for the Rings of Iron Will and Reflexes to get the same treatment.

I prefer the earlier version myself as well

Please indulge me to talk about the Monk for a moment.

I've seen a lot of claims that the Monk is all about damage. I don't think that is true. The Monk is all about nifty little attack tricks. Sliding twice, stunning, Dragon Fist to get around DR. Plus all of the defensive abilities that so rarely come into play. Unlike FIghter they don't get an extra bonus to hit. Unlike Barb, they don't get bonus damage. The idea that a monk is all about damage has grown out of the large amounts of tokens that enhance damage, and that for the Monks, they are twice as effective.

I'd like to get away from that, and get back to the Monk having a bag of tricks rather than just stacking on damage numbers.

I am also opposed to auto-kill, and of the belief that having two different Legendaries that have it is not good. It makes both less special, and increases the chance of it triggering.

My suggestion therefore is this:

Necklace of the Elder Drake
FoB ignores: Incorporeal, Invisibility, Immune to Stun, and Immune to Critical

Necklace of the Spirit Drake
FoB ignores: Incorporeal, Invisibility, Immune to Stun, Immune to Critical, and DR
Stun Fist and Critical on 18 & 20
FoB melee against range targets (1/combat)

First, about the names, I just think Elder sounds like 'power gained with age and experience', while Spirit sounds like 'transcended mortal limits'. So I think we should switch them.

Now, as for the actual powers; We have ways around incorporeal, invisible, and immune to critical, but the first two are fairly situational. There is nothing (at least that I can find in the DB) that gets around Immune to Stun. So rather that give the Monk more damage, I'm saying have the Relic get around a number of things that limit the monk's ability. And have the Legendary expand that even further, adding that they get around DR. Crit and Stun on 18 and 20 is similar to the normal expanders, but again, is a bit of a trick. It also opens up the option to get the missing '19' through other tokens, (Ring of Stunning fist).

As for the capstone "GoFF 1/combat"; a lot of us Monks have been asking for the power, just flat out. It is a fairly iconic monk ability (Ki blasts, wind blades, stretching arms), and our only access has been OOP for 5 years, in fairly high demand, yet searching the auction and sales forums doesn't show any available. Personally, I would still like to see this as a fully available power, but I think once per combat would be a good compromise; have the power once if needed, but doesn't fully eclipse the original (not that the current version is concerned about eclipsing the aforementioned ring or last year's common Monk belt).

jpotter wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote:

jpotter wrote: Wow I am totally against all of the calls for the nerf of the Holy Avenger, and I don't even play paladin.

Less Welfor damage
guard 2
sacrifice 2
auto-kill

And to put it bluntly, that item sucks.

a. That's a matter of opinion.

b. Let's hear some proposals a better item then. There has to be a middle ground between "it sucks" and granting a slotless effects: of a UR Amulet of Guarding, UR Crown of Expertise, and better than a relic back slot bolted onto an already capable +5 weapon.

This still seems too good to me. Maybe if the saves bonus went to +2 it would seem about right.

My original post did call for better ideas and included one (saving for those guarded). My point was that everyone seems to want to simply take the saves away and say that the item is ok then.

The saves are the only interesting thing about it in its current form, as nothing else is actually something the paladin can't already do.

As is evidenced by responses in this thread, people don't actually use sacrifice outside of grind or corner cases, and everyone hates the very niche auto kill. So as others have said, including them as if they are some amazing bonuses to the paladin class seems disingenuous.

The double guard can already be done with another token, but is something paladins want, so including it seems great. Having it stack would be better, as it gives it that little bit extra like the other class relics got.

I'm totally fine with adding your suggestions. I simply take issue with the idea that the token as given, minus the saves, is 'fine' or 'good enough for a class legendary'.

Agreed 100%

Wayne Rhodes wrote:

Kirk Bauer wrote: I don't want to keep harping on the +5 Holy Avenger because I'm not anti-paladin or anything. With my backup class being Wizard I find myself liking the guard facility on a regular basis. I really like Paladins, but I rarely play one, so again I want to leave that caveat.

Now imagine the following slotless Legendary:

• +5 to Saves
  • Guard one more ally
  • Can sacrifice twice
  • 10-pt heal (1/game
  • Auto-kill Evil Outsider on 20
  
  
  That's almost as much saves as Pharacus' Cloak, and has the effect of Amulet of Guarding, and is slotless to boot. So that's pretty good. I wouldn't like to remove the extra guard because of the flavor. I agree with others if we reduce the saves to +2 or something then you have a token that's not too OP.
  
  Now you might argue "but it isn't slotless". I'll argue that it is not only slotless, it is actually better than slotless. Why is that? It's slotless because equipping it in your Mainhand doesn't prevent you from utilizing any other weapons. So it doesn't take up that slot. To be fair it would block something like a Viper Set bonus but most Paladins don't use Viper Strike Fangs from what I see. This is why I consider it slotless. Because there are no weapons higher than a +5 to-hit, and because almost all other weapons don't have a party card effect, there is no downside to equipping this.
  
  Why is it better than a slotless? Because you can't attack with a slotless. This is also a great weapon. So you can choose: equip it but don't slide it and it is slotless. Slide it and it is a +5 Legendary weapon. This assumes its effects still apply even when you switch weapons which hasn't been explicitly stated.
  
  So here are the options a Paladin has with this Legendary:
  
  • If they don't like it as their weapon, equip it and use the other weapon. If the other weapon wasn't a +5 then you just sleazed it into a +5 but didn't break any rules. So it's slotless and also upgrades any other weapon to a +5 to-hit.
  • If they do like it as their weapon, now they have a great Legendary token that is also a great +5 weapon.
  
  I like the token, just tone down or even remove the save bonus. Actually now that I think about it that's my preferred option. Since save bonuses are recorded on the party card, and since players can swap weapons, it is simpler to not have save bonuses on a weapon.
  
  No, regarding stacking the guards. It seems we are getting into game-breaking territory here. With 1 guard you have a tough choice. With 3 guards you can guard both wizards as well as the bard. That's 1/3 of the party that doesn't have to worry much about their AC.
  
  Another way to look at it is the Paladin would be taking an average of 40% of all attacks. In a 3-combat dungeon, with 3 rounds per combat, and 10 players, and with monsters making single-target melee attacks, players were already averaging only one attack per dungeon.

Really I wish people would stop bringing up the autokill and the sacrifice like they matter, the are going to come into effect almost never and there would be no negative reaction if they were stripped from the token.

If we make the +5 Holy avenger too week a lot of us will not want it. Besides we already have a slotless legendary token in the Lute, for no slot it lets a Bard give a total of +4+4 Bard song and gives the Bard a full regular and free action, plus a reroll 1 to 3 failed saves, so yes very strong. I would say getting your action back is stronger than guard.

I’m ok with toning down the sword some but let’s not nerf it into being something I don’t even want. I think locking it into the hand slot fixes all the slotless issues, it can be a Holy avenger only rule with the Golden rule is the tokens text can change a rule. A small tweak can fix all the slotless issues.

Seriously, all good points

Stunning Fist on a 19-20 is a bit too
Much, how about on a 20 only,
And +6 damage bonus.

Mike Steele wrote:

James Bennett wrote:

Steven wrote: I like the new ranger transmute and I think that the ammo buff is on par with flavor but would like to see only one ability use a consumable

Also I agree that the ring of stam needs just a little more at the 4 star stage. The ring of the dire boar gives +3 to hp which is only 1-2 less and 1 fort save less and is fairly inexpensive to make

I'd also like to see the Ring of Stamina give +3 CON. I feel like that would help people who have recently started getting into filling out their builds up to a hardcore level more easily.

I actually REALLY preferred the original version of +6 to Fortitude Saves, with a plan for the Rings of Iron Will and Reflexes to get the same treatment.

Could we do a hybrid at +3 or +4 fort and +1 con? I really would like a source of con to round out my party without having to use blighted pants

Endgame wrote: Could we do a hybrid at +3 or +4 fort and +1 con? I really would like a source of con to round out my party without having to use blighted pants

I agree with this 100%

Xavon wrote: Please indulge me to talk about the Monk for a moment.

I've seen a lot of claims that the Monk is all about damage. I don't think that is true. The Monk is all about nifty little attack tricks. Sliding twice, stunning, Dragon Fist to get around DR. Plus all of the defensive abilities that so rarely come into play. Unlike FIghter they don't get an extra bonus to hit. Unlike Barb, they don't get bonus damage. The idea that a monk is all about damage has grown out of the large amounts of tokens that enhance damage, and that for the Monks, they are twice as effective.

I'd like to get away from that, and get back to the Monk having a bag of tricks rather than just stacking on damage numbers.

I am also opposed to auto-kill, and of the belief that having two different Legendaries that have it is not good. It makes both less special, and increases the chance of it triggering.

My suggestion therefore is this:

Necklace of the Elder Drake
FoB ignores: Incorporeal, Invisibility, Immune to Stun, and Immune to Critical

Necklace of the Spirit Drake
FoB ignores: Incorporeal, Invisibility, Immune to Stun, Immune to Critical, and DR
Stun Fist and Critical on 18 & 20
FoB melee against range targets (1/combat)

First, about the names, I just think Elder sounds like 'power gained with age and experience', while Spirit sounds like 'transcended mortal limits'. So I think we should switch them.

Now, as for the actual powers; We have ways around incorporeal, invisible, and immune to critical, but the first two are fairly situational. There is nothing (at least that I can find in the DB) that gets around Immune to Stun. So rather that give the Monk more damage, I'm saying have the Relic get around a number of things that limit the monk's ability. And have the Legendary expand that even further, adding that they get around DR. Crit and Stun on 18 and 20 is similar to the normal expanders, but again, is a bit of a trick. It also opens up the option to get the missing '19' through other tokens, (Ring of Stunning fist).

As for the capstone "GoFF 1/combat"; a lot of us Monks have been asking for the power, just flat out. It is a fairly iconic monk ability (Ki blasts, wind blades, stretching arms), and our only access has been OOP for 5 years, in fairly high demand, yet searching the auction and sales forums doesn't show any available. Personally, I would still like to see this as a fully available power, but I think once per combat would be a good compromise; have the power once if needed, but doesn't fully eclipse the original (not that the current version is concerned about eclipsing the aforementioned ring or last year's common Monk belt).

I could get behind immune to stun and immune to crit. I dislike giving them immune to invisible and ethereal, I'll admit partly because I planned to suggest those for the Fighter tokens next year. The core feature of Fighter seems to be the ability to hit more often (bonus to hit and their reslide) so giving them the ability to ignore invisibility (like Blindfight in D&D) or ignore Ethereal (apply Ghosttouch to their weapons) feels like some of the few things to give Fighters other than straight to-hit bonuses.

Fiddy wrote:

Xavon wrote: Please indulge me to talk about the Monk for a moment.

I've seen a lot of claims that the Monk is all about damage. I don't think that is true. The Monk is all about nifty little attack tricks. Sliding twice, stunning, Dragon Fist to get around DR. Plus all of the defensive abilities that so rarely come into play. Unlike FIghter they don't get an extra bonus to hit. Unlike Barb, they don't get bonus damage. The idea that a monk is all about damage has grown out of the large amounts of tokens that enhance damage, and that for the Monks, they are twice as effective.

I'd like to get away from that, and get back to the Monk having a bag of tricks rather than just stacking on damage numbers.

I am also opposed to auto-kill, and of the belief that having two different Legendaries that have it is not good. It makes both less special, and increases the chance of it triggering.

My suggestion therefore is this:

Necklace of the Elder Drake
FoB ignores: Incorporeal, Invisibility, Immune to Stun, and Immune to Critical

Necklace of the Spirit Drake
FoB ignores: Incorporeal, Invisibility, Immune to Stun, Immune to Critical, and DR
Stun Fist and Critical on 18 & 20
FoB melee against range targets (1/combat)

First, about the names, I just think Elder sounds like 'power gained with age and experience', while Spirit sounds like 'transcended mortal limits'. So I think we should switch them.

Now, as for the actual powers; We have ways around incorporeal, invisible, and immune to critical, but the first two are fairly situational. There is nothing (at least that I can find in the DB) that gets around Immune to Stun. So rather that give the Monk more damage, I'm saying have the Relic get around a number of things that limit the monk's ability. And have the Legendary expand that even further, adding that they get around DR. Crit and Stun on 18 and 20 is similar to the normal expanders, but again, is a bit of a trick. It also opens up the option to get the missing '19' through other tokens, (Ring of Stunning fist).

As for the capstone "GoFF 1/combat"; a lot of us Monks have been asking for the power, just flat out. It is a fairly iconic monk ability (Ki blasts, wind blades, stretching arms), and our only access has been OOP for 5 years, in fairly high demand, yet searching the auction and sales forums doesn't show any available. Personally, I would still like to see this as a fully available power, but I think once per combat would be a good compromise; have the power once if needed, but doesn't fully eclipse the original (not that the current version is concerned about eclipsing the aforementioned ring or last year's common Monk belt).

I could get behind immune to stun and immune to crit. I dislike giving them immune to invisible and ethereal, I'll admit partly because I planned to suggest those for the Fighter tokens next year. The core feature of Fighter seems to be the ability to hit more often (bonus to hit and their reslide) so giving them the ability to ignore invisibility (like Blindfight in D&D) or ignore Ethereal (apply Ghosttouch to their weapons) feels like some of the few things to give Fighters other than straight to-hit bonuses.

Then what about:
Necklace of the Elder Drake
FoB ignores Immune to Stun, and Immune to Critical
FoB melee against range targets (1/combat)

Necklace of the Spirit Drake
FoB ignores Immune to Stun, Immune to Critical, and DR
Stun Fist and Critical on 18 & 20
FoB melee against range targets