Fiddy wrote:
Matthew Hayward wrote:
Fiddy wrote:
Matthew Hayward wrote:
jpotter wrote:
Brad Mortensen wrote: Re: Meek - it’s kind of confusing. What counts as “other melee dmg bonus”? Is that other than STR? Or is STR bonus part of the +5?
Can it just be reworded as “melee damage bonus limited to +5” or 11, or whatever the limit is meant to be?
I like this better for simplicity's sake.
"Max +10 hit/+10 damage on party card" or something along those lines
There is nothing wrong with the eminently simpler: Max 18 STR.
Has anyone actually explained a scenario where that limit alone doesn't avoid any problems?
The Rod of the Meek gets +1 to hit over the new flaming shortsword, with the drawback that your STR can't be over 18. What more needs to be said?
Given how we've stated in the past that the VSF are OP, I'm a bit surprised we're doing the Dirk as well since it is close to a reprint of VSF.
In addition to being +1 to hit over the Dirk, the Rod also has no typed damage that could be resisted, and is usable by more classes.
I agree the restriction should be simpler. I had suggested just a +10 melee damage limit.
As far as why the Rod needs restrictions, compare it to the +2 War Shillelagh from 2017, which is limited to Barbarian, Fighters, and Paladin. The Rod gets +1 more to hit, and has the same average damage. Or compare to last year's +2 Holy Avenger. The Rod has +1 to hit and +0.5 higher average damage. The Avenger is limited to 4 classes, one of which gets a tough to trigger effect.
A weapon usable by all should NOT be so close to the more restricted weapons. If we're going to make them so close, there needs to be a real restriction.
In my opinion.
The STR 18 cap is a massive drawback.
Adding more drawbacks is complicated, and serves no purpose.
Here is a realistic build you could put together for ~$50:
L4 Fighter:
Gauntlets of Ogre Power +2 STR
Betl of Ogre Power +2 STR
Shirt of Baneful Prowess +2 STR
Bracers of Frost +2 damage
Lenses of Heimdahl Site +1 to hit
Ring of Dark Health +1 damage
The 2020 +2 shock damage boots
Amulet of Vigor +2 STR
Fiendish Charm +2 STR
Wicked Charm +1 STR
Total strength: 26
Total melee to-hit bonus before weapon: +9
Total melee damage bonus before: +13
This build with +2 War Shillelagh:
+11 to hit, 20.5 average damage
This build with Rod of the Meek: First you have to drop 8 STR. Then you get:
+8 to hit, 16.5 average damage.
The Fighter build above would be better off with usable by all, +1 Bliss Hammer than it would be by dropping 8 STR and using Rod of the Meek.
If anyone isn't yet sure if the STR 18 cap isn't a sufficient drawback, I recommend this exercise:
1. Write out the build using Rod of the Meek.
2. See if with a budget of $50 on the main token stores, you can get a better to-hit and damage bonus by modifying the same build with a +1 Bliss Hammer and going over 18 STR.
I believe you will always be able to succeed at this task.
Grrrrr.... This is exactly part of why I hate the 2018 hammers. We gave too much power in a weapon usable by all and now we're pushing things from there. Prior to 2018, hammers were usable only by a restricted set of classes and due to the Norse theme of the modules it was decided to make hammers usable by all that year without toning down their damage. I still strongly suggest that hammers from 2018 not be used to design future tokens, or else we really ought to consider bumping up weapons for Fighters BEFORE we release more powerful weapons usable by all.
The +1 Bliss Hammer are completely irrelevant to the point being made.
The exact same argument applies for the 2010 +1 Darkwood Club or any number of other rare weapons.
It's not the ~1 point extra damage on the Bliss Hammer that somehow is making the argument above work.
The point is build utilizing the Rod of the Meek with 18 STR can be improved upon by dropping to a rare melee weapon and buying half a dozen or so STR boosting rares an uncommons.
That state of affairs demonstrates that the 18 STR cap is a sufficient drawback and we don't need to go down the road of confusing additional limitations.
I don't understand your concern with the Bliss Hammers in any case, at the R, UR, and Relic levels they didn't really change much of anything for anyone:
In 2010 there was a usable by all +1 Darkwood Club with average damage 4.666. Then in 2018 there was a 5.5 average damage usable by all +1 Bliss Hammer. I believe everyone but Wizards already had 5.5 average damage one handed melee weapons at rare prior to 2018.
In 2014 there was a usable by +3 Rod of Niltongue with average damage 6.5 and a secondary ability. Then in 2018 there was a usable by all +3 Throwing Hammer of Smiting of average damage also of 6.5 and a stat limit and a secondary ability.
Prior to Thor's, every class had access to a legendary weapon of at least 8.5 average damage. The only one exactly at 8.5 average damage is the Wizard one, which also conveys +5 to spell damage, every other class has access to higher damage legendary weapons. Thor's has 8.5 average damage, a stat minimum, and is keen and a returning thrown weapon.
It doesn't look to me that there has been any really substantial power creep with the hammers. If there is - it is at the legendary tier with returning and keen.
I understand and even agree with the frustration that Fighters don't have the best weapons really - or the gap is narrow. From the above, it doesn't look like that has anything to do with the hammers at all.
I think the real culprit there is the Viper Strike Fangs which gave classes beyond fighter access to a +2, 7.5 average damage one handed weapon (previously only available as the Dread Sword I think).
