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TOPIC: 2020 Ultra Rare Beta Images

2020 Ultra Rare Beta Images 7 months 2 weeks ago #61

Brad Mortensen wrote: Re: Meek - it’s kind of confusing. What counts as “other melee dmg bonus”? Is that other than STR? Or is STR bonus part of the +5?

Can it just be reworded as “melee damage bonus limited to +5” or 11, or whatever the limit is meant to be?


I like this better for simplicity's sake.

"Max +10 hit/+10 damage on party card" or something along those lines
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2020 Ultra Rare Beta Images 7 months 2 weeks ago #62

jpotter wrote:

Brad Mortensen wrote: Re: Meek - it’s kind of confusing. What counts as “other melee dmg bonus”? Is that other than STR? Or is STR bonus part of the +5?

Can it just be reworded as “melee damage bonus limited to +5” or 11, or whatever the limit is meant to be?


I like this better for simplicity's sake.

"Max +10 hit/+10 damage on party card" or something along those lines


There is nothing wrong with the eminently simpler: Max 18 STR.

Has anyone actually explained a scenario where that limit alone doesn't avoid any problems?

The Rod of the Meek gets +1 to hit over the new flaming shortsword, with the drawback that your STR can't be over 18. What more needs to be said?
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2020 Ultra Rare Beta Images 7 months 2 weeks ago #63

OrionW wrote: I think too much is being made of the Key's affect on the game. I think it will be less noticeable then the scroll and potion boosting items that already exist. I think people that are fans of the book should be able to have nice things and it should not be nerfed into oblivion.

I would like to see the +5 dmg restriction removed from the Rod of the Meek. Part of the fun of TD is puzzle solving and folks that like to solve puzzles would like to game out how to add +dmg to this item. I don't think that the item represents a huge power spike in the same way that a x3 crit weapon would and as a result the guardrails should be loosed up a bit.


Agree on Keys. Endgame's calculations work for him, his group, and how he'd like to allocate his resources. I think a big concern he mentioned in other threads is whether or not dungeons will be tweaked to account for this (for lack of a better word-) 'loophole'. Perhaps Nightmare+ should take the statistics into account, but hopefully the effects on the larger meta aren't too noticeable.

I was 100% buying a Rod of the Meek before this latest tweak. Wouldn't buy it as-printed. Oh well - that was just the puzzle/combo player in me looking for an interesting build to explore. I understand the change and accept it. Saves me a PYP.
"IMHO we like to solve problems here on the forums that are only perceived problems due to a myopic view." -Bob Chasan
My Elemental build
My trade list
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2020 Ultra Rare Beta Images 7 months 2 weeks ago #64

Matthew Hayward wrote:

jpotter wrote:

Brad Mortensen wrote: Re: Meek - it’s kind of confusing. What counts as “other melee dmg bonus”? Is that other than STR? Or is STR bonus part of the +5?

Can it just be reworded as “melee damage bonus limited to +5” or 11, or whatever the limit is meant to be?


I like this better for simplicity's sake.

"Max +10 hit/+10 damage on party card" or something along those lines


There is nothing wrong with the eminently simpler: Max 18 STR.

Has anyone actually explained a scenario where that limit alone doesn't avoid any problems?

The Rod of the Meek gets +1 to hit over the new flaming shortsword, with the drawback that your STR can't be over 18. What more needs to be said?


I was thinking people wanted to avoid a situation where by adding simply plus hit and damage items instead of str items, they somehow 'break' the rod.

So this is just me making something in a few minutes, but I made this fighter:

tdcharactercreator.com/#/character/edit/26e5419a-b88b-4211-ba0c-7539b40f7c9e

I didn't try to go crazy like 5 piece eldritch or anything, but just stuck to tokens I have myself.

Looks like you can get to +17 to hit and +25 damage fairly easily while staying at 18 str.

Is this game-breaking? I don't believe so. But I am guessing this is where most people's worries about the token lie.
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2020 Ultra Rare Beta Images 7 months 2 weeks ago #65

Matthew Hayward wrote:

jpotter wrote:

Brad Mortensen wrote: Re: Meek - it’s kind of confusing. What counts as “other melee dmg bonus”? Is that other than STR? Or is STR bonus part of the +5?

Can it just be reworded as “melee damage bonus limited to +5” or 11, or whatever the limit is meant to be?


I like this better for simplicity's sake.

"Max +10 hit/+10 damage on party card" or something along those lines


There is nothing wrong with the eminently simpler: Max 18 STR.

Has anyone actually explained a scenario where that limit alone doesn't avoid any problems?

The Rod of the Meek gets +1 to hit over the new flaming shortsword, with the drawback that your STR can't be over 18. What more needs to be said?


Given how we've stated in the past that the VSF are OP, I'm a bit surprised we're doing the Dirk as well since it is close to a reprint of VSF.

In addition to being +1 to hit over the Dirk, the Rod also has no typed damage that could be resisted, and is usable by more classes.

I agree the restriction should be simpler. I had suggested just a +10 melee damage limit.

As far as why the Rod needs restrictions, compare it to the +2 War Shillelagh from 2017, which is limited to Barbarian, Fighters, and Paladin. The Rod gets +1 more to hit, and has the same average damage. Or compare to last year's +2 Holy Avenger. The Rod has +1 to hit and +0.5 higher average damage. The Avenger is limited to 4 classes, one of which gets a tough to trigger effect.

A weapon usable by all should NOT be so close to the more restricted weapons. If we're going to make them so close, there needs to be a real restriction.

In my opinion.
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2020 Ultra Rare Beta Images 7 months 2 weeks ago #66

  • Xavon
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What about this:

Make the Arcane set Items Lucky. Get rid of the Arcane Set. Fold in some of the rare items as suggested in the Notes thread (Like Mail of Luck and Shadow Cloak). Make the Lucky set bonus a flat +1 HP per Lucky set item equipped (min 2).

Especially since the Arcane set bonus overlaps with the Key, And could be confusing with the future Arcanum items.
Applications programming is a race between software engineers, who strive to produce idiot-proof programs, and the Universe, which strives to produce bigger idiots.  <br /><br />So far, the Universe is winning.
Last edit: by Xavon.
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2020 Ultra Rare Beta Images 7 months 2 weeks ago #67

Fiddy wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote:

jpotter wrote:

Brad Mortensen wrote: Re: Meek - it’s kind of confusing. What counts as “other melee dmg bonus”? Is that other than STR? Or is STR bonus part of the +5?

Can it just be reworded as “melee damage bonus limited to +5” or 11, or whatever the limit is meant to be?


I like this better for simplicity's sake.

"Max +10 hit/+10 damage on party card" or something along those lines


There is nothing wrong with the eminently simpler: Max 18 STR.

Has anyone actually explained a scenario where that limit alone doesn't avoid any problems?

The Rod of the Meek gets +1 to hit over the new flaming shortsword, with the drawback that your STR can't be over 18. What more needs to be said?


Given how we've stated in the past that the VSF are OP, I'm a bit surprised we're doing the Dirk as well since it is close to a reprint of VSF.

In addition to being +1 to hit over the Dirk, the Rod also has no typed damage that could be resisted, and is usable by more classes.

I agree the restriction should be simpler. I had suggested just a +10 melee damage limit.

As far as why the Rod needs restrictions, compare it to the +2 War Shillelagh from 2017, which is limited to Barbarian, Fighters, and Paladin. The Rod gets +1 more to hit, and has the same average damage. Or compare to last year's +2 Holy Avenger. The Rod has +1 to hit and +0.5 higher average damage. The Avenger is limited to 4 classes, one of which gets a tough to trigger effect.

A weapon usable by all should NOT be so close to the more restricted weapons. If we're going to make them so close, there needs to be a real restriction.

In my opinion.


This seems like a good argument for taking the average damage down by 1. I think a slight reduction in damage would be preferable to a limitation on +dmg.
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2020 Ultra Rare Beta Images 7 months 2 weeks ago #68

Fiddy wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote:

jpotter wrote:

Brad Mortensen wrote: Re: Meek - it’s kind of confusing. What counts as “other melee dmg bonus”? Is that other than STR? Or is STR bonus part of the +5?

Can it just be reworded as “melee damage bonus limited to +5” or 11, or whatever the limit is meant to be?


I like this better for simplicity's sake.

"Max +10 hit/+10 damage on party card" or something along those lines


There is nothing wrong with the eminently simpler: Max 18 STR.

Has anyone actually explained a scenario where that limit alone doesn't avoid any problems?

The Rod of the Meek gets +1 to hit over the new flaming shortsword, with the drawback that your STR can't be over 18. What more needs to be said?


Given how we've stated in the past that the VSF are OP, I'm a bit surprised we're doing the Dirk as well since it is close to a reprint of VSF.

In addition to being +1 to hit over the Dirk, the Rod also has no typed damage that could be resisted, and is usable by more classes.

I agree the restriction should be simpler. I had suggested just a +10 melee damage limit.

As far as why the Rod needs restrictions, compare it to the +2 War Shillelagh from 2017, which is limited to Barbarian, Fighters, and Paladin. The Rod gets +1 more to hit, and has the same average damage. Or compare to last year's +2 Holy Avenger. The Rod has +1 to hit and +0.5 higher average damage. The Avenger is limited to 4 classes, one of which gets a tough to trigger effect.

A weapon usable by all should NOT be so close to the more restricted weapons. If we're going to make them so close, there needs to be a real restriction.

In my opinion.


The STR 18 cap is a massive drawback.

Adding more drawbacks is complicated, and serves no purpose.


Here is a realistic build you could put together for ~$50:

L4 Fighter:

Gauntlets of Ogre Power +2 STR
Betl of Ogre Power +2 STR
Shirt of Baneful Prowess +2 STR
Bracers of Frost +2 damage
Lenses of Heimdahl Site +1 to hit
Ring of Dark Health +1 damage
The 2020 +2 shock damage boots
Amulet of Vigor +2 STR
Fiendish Charm +2 STR
Wicked Charm +1 STR

Total strength: 26
Total melee to-hit bonus before weapon: +9
Total melee damage bonus before: +13


This build with +2 War Shillelagh:

+11 to hit, 20.5 average damage

This build with Rod of the Meek: First you have to drop 8 STR. Then you get:

+8 to hit, 16.5 average damage.



The Fighter build above would be better off with usable by all, +1 Bliss Hammer than it would be by dropping 8 STR and using Rod of the Meek.




If anyone isn't yet sure if the STR 18 cap isn't a sufficient drawback, I recommend this exercise:

1. Write out the build using Rod of the Meek.

2. See if with a budget of $50 on the main token stores, you can get a better to-hit and damage bonus by modifying the same build with a +1 Bliss Hammer and going over 18 STR.

I believe you will always be able to succeed at this task.
Last edit: by Matthew Hayward.
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2020 Ultra Rare Beta Images 7 months 2 weeks ago #69

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Let's play a game - if anyone wants to continue to act like STR 18 Cap isn't a sufficient drawback:

1. Post a build using Rod of the Meek.

2. Then I will show you how to take that build, and add nothing but readily available rare and uncommon tokens and a +1 Bliss Hammer, come up with a better build.


3. COME AT ME, BRO
"IMHO we like to solve problems here on the forums that are only perceived problems due to a myopic view." -Bob Chasan
My Elemental build
My trade list
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2020 Ultra Rare Beta Images 7 months 2 weeks ago #70

Arnold wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Let's play a game - if anyone wants to continue to act like STR 18 Cap isn't a sufficient drawback:

1. Post a build using Rod of the Meek.

2. Then I will show you how to take that build, and add nothing but readily available rare and uncommon tokens and a +1 Bliss Hammer, come up with a better build.


3. COME AT ME, BRO


Lol. You caught me before I could rephrase it to be more conciliatory.
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2020 Ultra Rare Beta Images 7 months 2 weeks ago #71

jpotter wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote:

jpotter wrote:

Brad Mortensen wrote: Re: Meek - it’s kind of confusing. What counts as “other melee dmg bonus”? Is that other than STR? Or is STR bonus part of the +5?

Can it just be reworded as “melee damage bonus limited to +5” or 11, or whatever the limit is meant to be?


I like this better for simplicity's sake.

"Max +10 hit/+10 damage on party card" or something along those lines


There is nothing wrong with the eminently simpler: Max 18 STR.

Has anyone actually explained a scenario where that limit alone doesn't avoid any problems?

The Rod of the Meek gets +1 to hit over the new flaming shortsword, with the drawback that your STR can't be over 18. What more needs to be said?


I was thinking people wanted to avoid a situation where by adding simply plus hit and damage items instead of str items, they somehow 'break' the rod.

So this is just me making something in a few minutes, but I made this fighter:

tdcharactercreator.com/#/character/edit/26e5419a-b88b-4211-ba0c-7539b40f7c9e

I didn't try to go crazy like 5 piece eldritch or anything, but just stuck to tokens I have myself.

Looks like you can get to +17 to hit and +25 damage fairly easily while staying at 18 str.

Is this game-breaking? I don't believe so. But I am guessing this is where most people's worries about the token lie.


This is a cool build.

I think it would be awesome for someone to put together this build.

To be clear, this build gets +17 to hit and +25 damage. It uses:

2 Eldrtich
1 Relic
7 Ultrarare
3 rare
1 uncommon
and Ring of Frost

Let's switch around the build a bit to focus on STR instead:

tdcharactercreator.com/#/character/edit/a9f8d663-6a55-4a19-8268-c14335c0f0d6

This one gets to +18 to hit and +29 to damage with:

2 Eldritch
1 Relic
4 Ultrarare (3 fewer)
4 rare (1 more)
3 uncommon (2 more)
And Enchanter's Whetstone instead of Ring of Frost.

I'd judge this build to be better and cheaper.
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2020 Ultra Rare Beta Images 7 months 1 week ago #72

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Fiddy wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote:

jpotter wrote:

Brad Mortensen wrote: Re: Meek - it’s kind of confusing. What counts as “other melee dmg bonus”? Is that other than STR? Or is STR bonus part of the +5?

Can it just be reworded as “melee damage bonus limited to +5” or 11, or whatever the limit is meant to be?


I like this better for simplicity's sake.

"Max +10 hit/+10 damage on party card" or something along those lines


There is nothing wrong with the eminently simpler: Max 18 STR.

Has anyone actually explained a scenario where that limit alone doesn't avoid any problems?

The Rod of the Meek gets +1 to hit over the new flaming shortsword, with the drawback that your STR can't be over 18. What more needs to be said?


Given how we've stated in the past that the VSF are OP, I'm a bit surprised we're doing the Dirk as well since it is close to a reprint of VSF.

In addition to being +1 to hit over the Dirk, the Rod also has no typed damage that could be resisted, and is usable by more classes.

I agree the restriction should be simpler. I had suggested just a +10 melee damage limit.

As far as why the Rod needs restrictions, compare it to the +2 War Shillelagh from 2017, which is limited to Barbarian, Fighters, and Paladin. The Rod gets +1 more to hit, and has the same average damage. Or compare to last year's +2 Holy Avenger. The Rod has +1 to hit and +0.5 higher average damage. The Avenger is limited to 4 classes, one of which gets a tough to trigger effect.

A weapon usable by all should NOT be so close to the more restricted weapons. If we're going to make them so close, there needs to be a real restriction.

In my opinion.


The STR 18 cap is a massive drawback.

Adding more drawbacks is complicated, and serves no purpose.


Here is a realistic build you could put together for ~$50:

L4 Fighter:

Gauntlets of Ogre Power +2 STR
Betl of Ogre Power +2 STR
Shirt of Baneful Prowess +2 STR
Bracers of Frost +2 damage
Lenses of Heimdahl Site +1 to hit
Ring of Dark Health +1 damage
The 2020 +2 shock damage boots
Amulet of Vigor +2 STR
Fiendish Charm +2 STR
Wicked Charm +1 STR

Total strength: 26
Total melee to-hit bonus before weapon: +9
Total melee damage bonus before: +13


This build with +2 War Shillelagh:

+11 to hit, 20.5 average damage

This build with Rod of the Meek: First you have to drop 8 STR. Then you get:

+8 to hit, 16.5 average damage.



The Fighter build above would be better off with usable by all, +1 Bliss Hammer than it would be by dropping 8 STR and using Rod of the Meek.




If anyone isn't yet sure if the STR 18 cap isn't a sufficient drawback, I recommend this exercise:

1. Write out the build using Rod of the Meek.

2. See if with a budget of $50 on the main token stores, you can get a better to-hit and damage bonus by modifying the same build with a +1 Bliss Hammer and going over 18 STR.

I believe you will always be able to succeed at this task.


Grrrrr.... This is exactly part of why I hate the 2018 hammers. We gave too much power in a weapon usable by all and now we're pushing things from there. Prior to 2018, hammers were usable only by a restricted set of classes and due to the Norse theme of the modules it was decided to make hammers usable by all that year without toning down their damage. I still strongly suggest that hammers from 2018 not be used to design future tokens, or else we really ought to consider bumping up weapons for Fighters BEFORE we release more powerful weapons usable by all.
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