TOPIC: Transmute Ideas Please!

Endgame wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Fiddy wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Endgame wrote: Would a relic ioun stone of +3 saves and +2 ac be in the right range?

Yup - maybe a touch strong - there are UR Iouns:
+1 to saves and +1 AC
or
+2 to saves
or
+2 to saves and -10 from Darkrift


UR to Relic on cloaks gets you +1 to saves.
UR to Relic on AC items gets you between +2 to one save or +2 to one save and +1 to AC

So I would say you'd aim for a relic Ioun around +2 to saves and +1 to AC and maybe a little something extra. Maybe even +2/+2.

Agree that by itself, it is probably balanced. But adding another stacking +2 saves in that slot might be a bad idea. Also, not a huge fan of a +1/+2 AC bonus usable by all in a lightly contested slot since it may shrink the AC gap that has already been shrinking.

Given the ruckus that arose from the proposal to move the Bead of the Traveler to the Ioun slot I don’t feel the Ioun slot is uncontested at all - this token probably kicks another token with similar but lesser abilities out of an Ioun slot for a net difference of +0/+2 or +1/+1.

I agree very much. Based on the thread regarding treasure enhancers, there are functionally only 3 Ioun Stone slots currently available, since 2 will always be taken by nuggets. By 2021, there will only be 2 Ioun Stone slots that aren't filled with TE - sure, you use the new relic with a Topaz Trilliant, but if you are stacking saves in IS slots, its probably going to cost you a Tanzanite Cube or Sapphire Prism. Earcuff of Orbits works around this restriction, but at the cost of an earcuff slot, where a relic could also be placed to compete with orbits and icecraig.

Maybe we should think up a competitive earcuff token first then?

Fiddy wrote:

Endgame wrote: By 2021, there will only be 2 Ioun Stone slots that aren't filled with TE - sure, you use the new relic with a Topaz Trilliant, but if you are stacking saves in IS slots, its probably going to cost you a Tanzanite Cube or Sapphire Prism. Earcuff of Orbits works around this restriction, but at the cost of an earcuff slot, where a relic could also be placed to compete with orbits and icecraig.

Maybe we should think up a competitive earcuff token first then?

Agreed. Let's shake up the ear slot.

Competition in the IS slot is good. Do you prioritize more pulls, or other effects? Earcuff of Orbits just homogenizes builds further, IMO. Let's get a cool effect at the ear slot before we rehash a BIS token where there's already very little competition.

It's also incorrect to assume that everyone has and will have all the IS TE tokens.

Fiddy wrote:

Endgame wrote:

Brad Mortensen wrote:

James J Krot wrote: I would really like a holy symbol transmute and make that an official slot, maybe use one of the old ur plus a rare holy symbol transmute or something.

(I would argue that “Holy Symbol” is already a slot, under the “Quacks-Like-A-Duck Principle,” regardless of what the rules say. But it’s such a cornercase there’s no reason to devote the space on the character generators.)

I like that idea. I’d LOVE it as a path to our legendary. More thematic, and not having to use up our neck slot would mitigate some of the other recent indignities.

I agree that there is no reason to create a slot for the holy symbol if it stays a cleric only option.

I would very much like for the holy symbol to be the legendary, however only if there aren't plans for different holy symbols. For example, if holy symbols of Helm / Lathandar / Talos / Tyr are inbound, the legendary could end up being less cool very shortly. Unless the legendary combined a bunch of different holy symbols...

Here's a reason to make it a separate slot... character builders ought to be enforcing "only one holy symbol". If they're going to that, they'll need to do the work to mark tokens as "Holy Symbols" and add logic to only allow one to be equipped. I have a high suspicion that most of the character builders would have an easier time of that if there was just a Holy Symbol slot than if they have to work that into the logic for slotless tokens.

They have the same sort of problem with Pouches and Scroll Tubes. Sort of.

There is no Pouch slot, so you can carry many but you can only use one at a time. You can drink a heal pot from Tulz as a free action or from GAP for +1, but not both.

Until Haven, Holy Symbols didn’t stack, but one was undeniably better than the other. But we can’t swap, so they’re currently like Scroll Tubes in that regard, not pouches.

Currently, there is no reason to switch between Scroll Tubes. Just use your best one. If there is ever a new kind, like “damage scrolls heal a player +1; heal scrolls damage a monster 1hp,” there will have to be a decision whether to start treating them like pouches or Holy Symbols.

So, I think that in theory the ear slot is relatively locked in. The point above was that there are no Ioun Stone transmutes, while we had at least Icecrag Hero's Earcuff, and more recently, earcuff of freedom at the lower level.

I'm good either way, I just think we need to decide which level of transmutes we're talking about and go from there.

I would like to see a nice rare level Ioun Stone with a transmute path to a 4 star. The problem is there isn't much room between Ioun Stone Beryl Prism and Sapphire Prism or Tanzanite Cube.

I don't think reprinting Faceted Amber, Violet Prism, or Black Pearl is something anyone wants, although those effects could be pretty interesting to "upgrade"

Cranston wrote: Looking at a picture of a sword on the UR thread, reminded me of the Sword of Atlantas from the Conan TV and movies. With the +2 Death Flail from the 2019 set, how about a Barbarian transmute.

+3 Death Sword: Rage damage is 2X on critical hits
+5 Sword of Atlantas: During Rage, critical hit sunders opponent's weapon

If we're talking about a sword that grants fabulous powers...

Wade Schwendemann wrote: So, I think that in theory the ear slot is relatively locked in. The point above was that there are no Ioun Stone transmutes, while we had at least Icecrag Hero's Earcuff, and more recently, earcuff of freedom at the lower level.

I'm good either way, I just think we need to decide which level of transmutes we're talking about and go from there.

I would like to see a nice rare level Ioun Stone with a transmute path to a 4 star. The problem is there isn't much room between Ioun Stone Beryl Prism and Sapphire Prism or Tanzanite Cube.

I don't think reprinting Faceted Amber, Violet Prism, or Black Pearl is something anyone wants, although those effects could be pretty interesting to "upgrade"

To clarify my intent, I do think an Ioun Stone transmute should happen before another earcuff one. I was suggesting something should compete with Earcuff of Orbits before we introduce the suggested +saves Ioun Stone.

Arnold wrote: It's also incorrect to assume that everyone has and will have all the IS TE tokens.

No but I think its fair to say most will prioritize them and more people would feel better about perusing different ioun stone slot combinations if orbits were reprinted so they had room to do so. Anecdotal but, I passed on this years Ioun Stone Infernal Fire Prism specifically because the slot is already to crowded, and I have an orbits.

In principle I am against slot expanders, but orbits already exists so damage done. Where we are today IMO letting more people have access to extra slots fosters more build diversity.

Fiddy wrote:

Wade Schwendemann wrote: So, I think that in theory the ear slot is relatively locked in. The point above was that there are no Ioun Stone transmutes, while we had at least Icecrag Hero's Earcuff, and more recently, earcuff of freedom at the lower level.

I'm good either way, I just think we need to decide which level of transmutes we're talking about and go from there.

I would like to see a nice rare level Ioun Stone with a transmute path to a 4 star. The problem is there isn't much room between Ioun Stone Beryl Prism and Sapphire Prism or Tanzanite Cube.

I don't think reprinting Faceted Amber, Violet Prism, or Black Pearl is something anyone wants, although those effects could be pretty interesting to "upgrade"

To clarify my intent, I do think an Ioun Stone transmute should happen before another earcuff one. I was suggesting something should compete with Earcuff of Orbits before we introduce the suggested +saves Ioun Stone.

I don't think anything is going to compete with Orbits unless we make 2 new amazing earcuffs. Wizards are, at least I think, dropping Icecrag's to keep Orbits and use Earcuff of Inspiration.

I don't know, but I imagine there aren't many who would be using Earcuff of the Phalanx over 2 of those 3 if they had the choice.

I get your point about not making a relic level Ioun Stone that is just so good it has to be played, regardless of whether one has Orbits or not.

Picc wrote:

Arnold wrote: It's also incorrect to assume that everyone has and will have all the IS TE tokens.

No but I think its fair to say most will prioritize them and more people would feel better about perusing different ioun stone slot combinations if orbits were reprinted so they had room to do so. Anecdotal but, I passed on this years Ioun Stone Infernal Fire Prism specifically because the slot is already to crowded, and I have an orbits.

In principle I am against slot expanders, but orbits already exists so damage done. Where we are today IMO letting more people have access to extra slots fosters more build diversity.

At the high end of the spectrum, the vast majority of players will maximize treasure. It’s not even a question. Unless the treasure mix is significantly diluted.

The addition of a third TE IS will make things even more crowded.

I passed on the IS Infernal Fire Prism for the same reason.

Picc wrote:

Arnold wrote: It's also incorrect to assume that everyone has and will have all the IS TE tokens.

No but I think its fair to say most will prioritize them and more people would feel better about perusing different ioun stone slot combinations if orbits were reprinted so they had room to do so. Anecdotal but, I passed on this years Ioun Stone Infernal Fire Prism specifically because the slot is already to crowded, and I have an orbits.

In principle I am against slot expanders, but orbits already exists so damage done. Where we are today IMO letting more people have access to extra slots fosters more build diversity.

I don't disagree, but you're promoting diversity in one slot at the expense of another. A ubiquitous Orbits gold silver platinum world means very little diversity in the ear slot.

At least when someone who's maxed out on IS TE still can equip 2+.

Orbits means you are looking at 1 other token. A slot which is largely the same across most builds.

Charming and Phalanx and inspiration.

Arnold wrote: Charming and Phalanx and inspiration.

Also Icecrag's

I agree, Orbits is clearly best, both because of the other choices and because of what it offers.

I think it's too soon for an Orbits reprint. Other than game balance issues, I don't know, but the earliest reprint seems to have been 5 years OOP. Maybe next year?

Wade Schwendemann wrote:

Arnold wrote: Charming and Phalanx and inspiration.

Also Icecrag's

I agree, Orbits is clearly best, both because of the other choices and because of what it offers.

I think it's too soon for an Orbits reprint. Other than game balance issues, I don't know, but the earliest reprint seems to have been 5 years OOP. Maybe next year?

Thx, Wade. I think most folks would go Ice Orbits. The others I listed are more specific, and therefore don't make it into many builds. Having some more good options for the slot is a good thing, I think.