TOPIC: Transmute Ideas Please!

Endgame wrote:

Wade Schwendemann wrote:

Endgame wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote: Another idea for an effect for the Barbarian Legendary:

You may equip an additional waist slot item

Could you just short circuit the extra slot and say +5 str?

You could, but:

a. Not everyone has an extra girdle of frost giant strength just lying about

b. That would serve to decrease the diversity in building.

Will build diversity really be that, uhh, diverse with a slot expander legendary in the neck?

Well, for one thing I can imagine a lot of players potentially running with Viper Stirke Belt as a 2nd belt to get the Viper Strike set bonus.

I can imagine a few running Belt of Thorns.

I think this could open up diversity in the future for things like UR Belt of Linked Fury - +5 damage with two handed melee weapons etc.

Fred K wrote:

Wade Schwendemann wrote:

Endgame wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote: Another idea for an effect for the Barbarian Legendary:

You may equip an additional waist slot item

Could you just short circuit the extra slot and say +5 str?

You could, but:

a. Not everyone has an extra girdle of frost giant strength just lying about

b. That would serve to decrease the diversity in building.

No new slot expanders please. The power creep is very real and is becoming increasingly problematic. We should encourage new items that compete with existing best in slot. That is why most new legendaries that are class specific are neck slot to force choices for builds.

I would support another belt/waist slot item that would compete with Sutr’s Belt. I wouldn’t just do the same effect, though. Maybe a belt that is just a straight damage boost. Or, funnier, an ever loosening belt that is “let out” (transmuted) as your girth expands (+5/+20/+40 hp) but only for martial classes that would otherwise go with the strength belt.

I would really not like to see a waist slot item that competed with Surtr's - that would be a huge kick in the teeth to collectors. In my opinion Legendaries should almost never be eclipsed - or if they are they should have a 1:1 recipe for the old to new. For example, I'd be happy with new legendary bracers or a save boosting ring that took Ta'Mor's or Khing's as 1:1 trade ins because those two tokens are undesirable at legendary.

I am also pretty concerned with power creep in general but:

a. Introducing class specific legendary is going to creep power for all those classes - if it didn't the tokens wouldn't be desirable. I think this sort of power creep is good for the game and players: It gives you something to aim for, "legendary" really means something - not just +2/+2 over a UR, and it makes URs available to purple players (you're going to be able to get a bunch of great neck slot URs for an affordable price in the next few years).

b. I don't think slot manipulation / expansion has had any material effect on the kind of power creep that is not good for the game and players.

To date, most slot manipulation / expansion has been primarily focused on defensive or flavor slots:

- Charm of Brooching - back slot is almost universally a save boosting slot.
- Charm Bracelets - give up 2 melee damage or even more ranged damage for 2 of charm 4-8 is usually damage decreasing proposition.
- Gloves of Glory / Hand of Glory - give up 3-5 STR or 1-4 spell damage for a 3rd ring is usually a damage decreasing proposition.
Charm Necklace - give up 3 STR or 1 spell damage for 3 of charms 4-8 is usually damage decreasing.

The undesirable power creep in this game is coming from pretty much 1 thing: the continual expansion of STR or melee boosting tokens into new slots and increasing the cap of STR/melee boost available in existing slots.

Ring of the Eel did more for offensive power creep than every slot expander printed in my opinion.

For crying out loud - it's easier to lists the slots that _don't_ have melee boosters in them yet: Earcuff, Back (unless you're a Rogue), Greaves.

That being said - this token would definitely increase Barbarians damage potential. As Barbarians are routinely made to look like professional monster ticklers by Rangers in melee today, I have no problem with that.

I don't see having a second great item for a slot being a slight to older collectors. I have Surtur's Belt and wouldn't object to seeing another option for how to build melee combatants. Every year we get items that could change our ideas on how to do builds. I sold off my assassin's crossbow and lenses of vital insight because I was sure I wouldn't build a rogue based on range again. With this year's amulet, a ranged rogue can match a str in total damage while having more utility (yes, I went out and got the lenses and crossbow again after building the legendary necklace).

Giving us different ways to build characters is a good thing - it gives us different options for approaches and allows us to adapt from year to year. Yes - there will be times when you have two high value items you have to decide what to do. It's already happened several times with weapons (even at legendary) (Thor's Hammer versus the Slayer Sword - on-hand for ranger - Thor's hammer or Viper, etc.). Part of the reason why the new TE's are Ioun Stones is to force us to make choices on how to build our characters. The same is true of the neck slot (neck might have the best selection of items of any slot).

I suspect the collectors will still build/buy the new items regardless - this would allow new players to become somewhat close to on par with the vets without spending $10K with the various stores. Let's focus on things that give us different ways to approach the characters rather than just further increases in damage.

(Side note: Barbarian hasn't been #1 in overall damage for the past 5 or so years (if not longer), historically it is usually Ranger and Monk at 1 and 2 . - wizard recently jumped into third. The barbarian role is as much to be the meat shield as it is to do damage - much more so than either ranger or monk.)

Too bad nobody liked the ever expanding belt of girth for more hp - it reminded me of old school Volstagg from Thor comics

Fred

I would love to see +hit removed from str and have Dex be the sole way to boost to hit. Boost monster ac and now there is legitimate competition between str boosts and Dex boosts.

That would let you create, say, a +7 Dex belt. Legitimate competition with the current sutr

Endgame wrote: I would love to see +hit removed from str and have Dex be the sole way to boost to hit. Boost monster ac and now there is legitimate competition between str boosts and Dex boosts.

That would let you create, say, a +7 Dex belt. Legitimate competition with the current sutr

That would boost AC and reflex saves in addition to +hit. Pair it with the legendary robes and monks would rule the world.

Harlax wrote:

Endgame wrote: I would love to see +hit removed from str and have Dex be the sole way to boost to hit. Boost monster ac and now there is legitimate competition between str boosts and Dex boosts.

That would let you create, say, a +7 Dex belt. Legitimate competition with the current sutr

That would boost AC and reflex saves in addition to +hit. Pair it with the legendary robes and monks would rule the world.

It already boosts ranged hit, so the only thing you would be adding is melee hit.

Playing with a quick bis monk build, I get to 32 dex / +18 to hit with a +5 weapon before I have to start making str or damage compromise for more to hit. Monster ac at 40 and now we're talking.

At lower gear levels the trade offs get more real.

Clerics who want to use Thor's will thank you


Fighter types will not.

Endgame wrote: I would love to see +hit removed from str and have Dex be the sole way to boost to hit. Boost monster ac and now there is legitimate competition between str boosts and Dex boosts.

That would let you create, say, a +7 Dex belt. Legitimate competition with the current sutr

Yes please that belt, all of my classes save the barbarian would want one, please call it viper strike and add it to the set also.

I’d rather not change the way str and dex work, but if we do could we also make intelligence the reflex stat as a smart enough to get out of the way type thing? Let’s not get bogged down in D&D here, this is the True Dungeon and rules are for TPTB to create and destroy.

That belt though, reprint the viper strike belt, add a viper strike relic belt, and a legendary Jose’s Viper Strike Sash.

I can show you a lot of really smart people who have crummy reflexes

And while TD is not D&D, they are at least cousins. Besides in 3.5 it is possible to use Dex for to hit with the right build. But not required.

I'm against moving hit from str to dex. For starters it would upset a lot of apple carts who have spent a lot on str builds, but more over it makes dex way way to good.

Picc wrote: I'm against moving hit from str to dex. For starters it would upset a lot of apple carts who have spent a lot on str builds, but more over it makes dex way way to good.

I should move this to the closing the gap thread, but...

Right now stacking str is the solid single answer to both damage and hitting. This means with items that add 4, 5, 6, + str you end up with situations where a well equipped person just absoutley wipes out a monster in normal in a round.

If you moved hit away from str, and then massively increased ac as level increased, people would HAVE to back off of str to be able to hit. This would allow making hp closer between difficulties and decreasing the effect of someone over equipped running on normal.

Endgame wrote:

Picc wrote: I'm against moving hit from str to dex. For starters it would upset a lot of apple carts who have spent a lot on str builds, but more over it makes dex way way to good.

I should move this to the closing the gap thread, but...

Right now stacking str is the solid single answer to both damage and hitting. This means with items that add 4, 5, 6, + str you end up with situations where a well equipped person just absoutley wipes out a monster in normal in a round.

If you moved hit away from str, and then massively increased ac as level increased, people would HAVE to back off of str to be able to hit. This would allow making hp closer between difficulties and decreasing the effect of someone over equipped running on normal.

Again putting aside the fact that I doubt people would enjoy being messed with so fundamentally. Sure moving hit off str would make str less valuable, but at that point stacking dex raises hit/ranged hit/ac/reflex save. It's a one stop shop for offense/defence/ and saves. You really don't see that as at all worse? Because to me alot of dex items suddenly start to look a lot more OP. I think at best you would shift the OP builds to being dex stack's, and at worst you would make a lot of larger buyers question their investment.