TOPIC: Transmute Ideas Please!

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Boilerplate wrote:

jedibcg wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote: Other consumables (ammo, dust, non-damage effect runestones, non-healing scrolls, non-healing potions other than Bull's Strenght) I don't believe are used (please speak up if you do).

I have a small stash of ammo that I hold onto for range only combats because that is where my group's builds are weakest. Runestones are hit and miss with me. I do hang on to the non-damage effects for about a year. So the year of the Lycan everyone burned the non-regenation one for example. We hold onto very few non-healing scrolls. A couple damage dealing ones from each year just in case the wizard get spell happy too early and need something in the last room to do. Sage Speed Lenses can move through scrolls quick.

+1 to sage speed burning through damage scrolls. An ocarina equipped bard with sage speed and the greater arcane scroll tube can do pretty good damage. It’s a fun build.

That build doesn't work.

Quoting Lenses of Sage Speed "The wearer may cast two scrolls in one round. The first scroll consumes the wearer’s Standard Action and the second scroll consumes the wearer’s Free Action for that round. It does not allow wearers to cast a scroll as a Free Action if their Standard Action was used for any purpose other than casting a scroll"

You can't use your standard action of Bardsong + Scroll from Amorgen's to qualify for the Lenses of Sage Speed's action. Both URs require a standard action to power - you have only 1 to work with.

I might be wrong about this, but if so I think TokenDB needs clarification.

TL:DR;

LoSS says: Spend your standard and free action to read two scrolls.
AAO says: Spend your standard action to perform bardsong and read a scroll.

There is no way to do both.

I specifically asked for clarification for this exact build back when the Lenses and Ocarina were finalized. It does work, as the Lenses were built with the exact intention for working with the Ocarina. The final consensus was that the magic of the Ocarina allows Bardsong to happen at the same time while the first scroll Standard action is used. You then use your Free action from the Lenses to cast a second scroll.

Been using the build ever since as I hate sliding on the combat board and would rather just hand over scrolls for damage while using Bardsong.

Wade Schwendemann wrote: I on the other hand think that players would make one to use, play at NM or epic once, then play at HC and use this every time.

Or put them on ghosts. You could load a ghost full of TE’s and it won’t affect your build (unless you are using synergetic tokens). Overall i don’t understand why we would be encourging TE creep.

Hawk Fingle wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Boilerplate wrote:

jedibcg wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote: Other consumables (ammo, dust, non-damage effect runestones, non-healing scrolls, non-healing potions other than Bull's Strenght) I don't believe are used (please speak up if you do).

I have a small stash of ammo that I hold onto for range only combats because that is where my group's builds are weakest. Runestones are hit and miss with me. I do hang on to the non-damage effects for about a year. So the year of the Lycan everyone burned the non-regenation one for example. We hold onto very few non-healing scrolls. A couple damage dealing ones from each year just in case the wizard get spell happy too early and need something in the last room to do. Sage Speed Lenses can move through scrolls quick.

+1 to sage speed burning through damage scrolls. An ocarina equipped bard with sage speed and the greater arcane scroll tube can do pretty good damage. It’s a fun build.

That build doesn't work.

Quoting Lenses of Sage Speed "The wearer may cast two scrolls in one round. The first scroll consumes the wearer’s Standard Action and the second scroll consumes the wearer’s Free Action for that round. It does not allow wearers to cast a scroll as a Free Action if their Standard Action was used for any purpose other than casting a scroll"

You can't use your standard action of Bardsong + Scroll from Amorgen's to qualify for the Lenses of Sage Speed's action. Both URs require a standard action to power - you have only 1 to work with.

I might be wrong about this, but if so I think TokenDB needs clarification.

TL:DR;

LoSS says: Spend your standard and free action to read two scrolls.
AAO says: Spend your standard action to perform bardsong and read a scroll.

There is no way to do both.

I specifically asked for clarification for this exact build back when the Lenses and Ocarina were finalized. It does work, as the Lenses were built with the exact intention for working with the Ocarina. The final consensus was that the magic of the Ocarina allows Bardsong to happen at the same time while the first scroll Standard action is used. You then use your Free action from the Lenses to cast a second scroll.

Been using the build ever since as I hate sliding on the combat board and would rather just hand over scrolls for damage while using Bardsong.

Nice use of a standard action, two uses is better than one.

Matthew Hayward wrote: Midas' Mantle - Back - All
+4 treasure, you may not equip waist slot items

Transmutes from:
Rare - Hand of Midas - 400 GP
Recipe includes one hundred 2020 or 2021 treasure pulls.

Interesting, would be worth it for someone doing,a ton of runs. It wouldn't be worth it for my group, at 3 runs per year it would take over 8 years to get back the 100 pulls we gave up to transmute it.

I like the idea of treasure chips in recipes, that's uncharted territory.

jedibcg wrote: Overall i don’t understand why we would be encourging TE creep.

+1 to this.

I think the item mat proposed would do more harm then good. First a lot of people would complain about the price and get it driven down during design. Whatever price we finally settled on would still be seen as prohibitively expensive by most who would complain that it's just the rich getting richer and taking up a transmute slot. Even for the rich the item would probably be prohibitively expensive enough so that many would pass (since that seems to be the design goal). The only people I could see making one would be completionist collectors who would feel like they had to, and of those they still might not use it because of the draconian loss of 2 potentially legendary slots (cloak/belt). And even with all that said it would promote treasure creep, to say nothing of being outside the scope of Jeff's stated TE plan if it was made before the last nugget.

So I'm confused who is this item for? It seems like the plan is to design a TE no one would want and I'm not sure that's a good idea. No matter how I come at this item it just seems like it would be detrimental to someone's enjoyment. The only people who would seem to gain any benefit from it would be completionist farmers who would also probably still grumble before putting it on ghosts. Theoretically interesting, practically disastrous IMO.

Sometimes I think this group forgets that intent of a thread.

Often times actually.

The name of the thread is transmute ideas please!

Ideas!

Let's not skewer them quite so hard when we don't like them.

I agree, it doesnt seem necessary right now.

If I were a newer player, lurking and reading this thread, responses like some of these would definitely keep me from putting forth my ideas, lest they too get shredded.

Then we might miss the next great idea.

Wade Schwendemann wrote: Sometimes I think this group forgets that intent of a thread.

Often times actually.

The name of the thread is transmute ideas please!

Ideas!

Let's not skewer them quite so hard when we don't like them.

I agree, it doesnt seem necessary right now.

If I were a newer player, lurking and reading this thread, responses like some of these would definitely keep me from putting forth my ideas, lest they too get shredded.

Then we might miss the next great idea.

Go home wade, you’re drunk....lol. We are providing feedback on said idea. you never know our feedback might spark the next great idea.

jedibcg wrote:

Wade Schwendemann wrote: Sometimes I think this group forgets that intent of a thread.

Often times actually.

The name of the thread is transmute ideas please!

Ideas!

Let's not skewer them quite so hard when we don't like them.

I agree, it doesnt seem necessary right now.

If I were a newer player, lurking and reading this thread, responses like some of these would definitely keep me from putting forth my ideas, lest they too get shredded.

Then we might miss the next great idea.

Go home wade, you’re drunk....lol. We are providing feedback on said idea. you never know our feedback might spark the next great idea.

I am not! (any more......)

It just felt rough was all. It's an interesting idea to me. Maybe we can use it in 4 years?

Matthew Hayward wrote: ...Then give a choice of TE creep or melee/magic/ranged creep.

Right now maxing out TEs has very little impact on ones melee build - perhaps shaving off +1/+1 or +2/+2.

Farmers will love this token. For them the trade-off is a no-brainer. Ghost don’t care. And a payback period of 25 games puts it in line with most OOP TEs.

Wade Schwendemann wrote:

jedibcg wrote:

Wade Schwendemann wrote: Sometimes I think this group forgets that intent of a thread.

Often times actually.

The name of the thread is transmute ideas please!

Ideas!

Let's not skewer them quite so hard when we don't like them.

I agree, it doesnt seem necessary right now.

If I were a newer player, lurking and reading this thread, responses like some of these would definitely keep me from putting forth my ideas, lest they too get shredded.

Then we might miss the next great idea.

Go home wade, you’re drunk....lol. We are providing feedback on said idea. you never know our feedback might spark the next great idea.

I am not! (any more......)

It just felt rough was all. It's an interesting idea to me. Maybe we can use it in 4 years?

I hope my excitement for the idea did not come across wrong. I like the idea, I think it should be toned down to where I ended up for the reasons I gave. I would not have invested the time if I had thought it was a bad idea.

The community is better for the original idea, as was mentioned, token draws as part of a recipie is a new avenue to design space that has not been investigated before.

Wade Schwendemann wrote: Sometimes I think this group forgets that intent of a thread.

Often times actually.

The name of the thread is transmute ideas please!

Ideas!

Let's not skewer them quite so hard when we don't like them.

I agree, it doesnt seem necessary right now.

If I were a newer player, lurking and reading this thread, responses like some of these would definitely keep me from putting forth my ideas, lest they too get shredded.

Then we might miss the next great idea.

Just sometimes?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!

I don't think the count of genuine token possibilities even needs two hands to count out of 31 pages of posts. Just lots and lots and lots of discussion of Treasure enhancers......and then lots more talk about treasure enhancers......

Hawk Fingle wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Boilerplate wrote:

jedibcg wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote: Other consumables (ammo, dust, non-damage effect runestones, non-healing scrolls, non-healing potions other than Bull's Strenght) I don't believe are used (please speak up if you do).

I have a small stash of ammo that I hold onto for range only combats because that is where my group's builds are weakest. Runestones are hit and miss with me. I do hang on to the non-damage effects for about a year. So the year of the Lycan everyone burned the non-regenation one for example. We hold onto very few non-healing scrolls. A couple damage dealing ones from each year just in case the wizard get spell happy too early and need something in the last room to do. Sage Speed Lenses can move through scrolls quick.

+1 to sage speed burning through damage scrolls. An ocarina equipped bard with sage speed and the greater arcane scroll tube can do pretty good damage. It’s a fun build.

That build doesn't work.

Quoting Lenses of Sage Speed "The wearer may cast two scrolls in one round. The first scroll consumes the wearer’s Standard Action and the second scroll consumes the wearer’s Free Action for that round. It does not allow wearers to cast a scroll as a Free Action if their Standard Action was used for any purpose other than casting a scroll"

You can't use your standard action of Bardsong + Scroll from Amorgen's to qualify for the Lenses of Sage Speed's action. Both URs require a standard action to power - you have only 1 to work with.

I might be wrong about this, but if so I think TokenDB needs clarification.

TL:DR;

LoSS says: Spend your standard and free action to read two scrolls.
AAO says: Spend your standard action to perform bardsong and read a scroll.

There is no way to do both.

I specifically asked for clarification for this exact build back when the Lenses and Ocarina were finalized. It does work, as the Lenses were built with the exact intention for working with the Ocarina. The final consensus was that the magic of the Ocarina allows Bardsong to happen at the same time while the first scroll Standard action is used. You then use your Free action from the Lenses to cast a second scroll.

Been using the build ever since as I hate sliding on the combat board and would rather just hand over scrolls for damage while using Bardsong.

I'm not saying you're wrong, but it's odd to me that TDb, which is the source of truth, has wording that at best is ambiguous and at worst disagrees.

Can you link to the ruling?

The Lenses of Sage Speed were 2016, a year before the Amorgen's Amazing Ocarina (2017) - so it strikes me as highly unlikely that the lenses were "built with the exact intention of working with the Ocarina."


EDIT: I searched the 2017 token design forums and couldn't find a ruling. I posted a question on a separate thread for Druegar to see if we can get this settled / updated in TDb as appropriate.